EOY 2020 - UPROXX (US)

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Donchano
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EOY 2020 - UPROXX (US)

Post by Donchano »

https://uproxx.com/music/best-albums-2020-list/

50. The Strokes – The New Abnormal
49. Don Toliver – Heaven Or Hell
48. Dorian Electra – My Agenda
47. Beabadoobee – Fake It Flowers
46. Jay Electronica – A Written Testimony
45. Tame Impala – The Slow Rush
44. Burna Boy – Twice As Tall
43. Mulatto – Queen Of Da Souf
42. Deante’ Hitchcock – Better
41. Blackpink – The Album
40. Westside Gunn – Pray For Paris
39. Adrianne Lenker – Songs and Instrumentals
38. The Killers – Imploding The Mirage
37. Kehlani – It Was Good Until It Wasn’t
36. Khruangbin – Mordechai
35. Rina Sawayama – Sawayama
34. Gunna – Wunna
33. Megan Thee Stallion – Good News
32. Kota The Friend – Everything
31. Blimes And Gab – Talk About It
30. Selena Gomez – Rare
29. Polo G – The Goat
28. Bad Bunny – YHLQMDLG
27. Aminé – Limbo
26. Perfume Genius – Set My Heart On Fire Immediately
25. Bartees Strange – Live Forever
24. Soccer Mommy – Color Theory
23. Charli XCX – How I’m Feeling Now
22. Yaeji – What We Drew 우리가 그려왔던
21. D Smoke – Black Habits
20. Ariana Grande – Positions
19. Harry Styles – Fine Line
18. Sturgill Simpson – Cuttin’ Grass — Vol. 1 (Butcher Shoppe Sessions)
17. Yves Tumor – Heaven To A Tortured Mind
16. Flo Milli – Ho, Why Is You Here?
15. Phoebe Bridgers – Punisher
14. Lil Baby – My Turn
13. Run The Jewels – RTJ4
12. Fleet Foxes – Shore
11. Roddy Ricch – Please Excuse Me For Being Antisocial
10. The Weeknd – After Hours
09. Chloe x Halle – Ungodly Hour
08. Haim – Women In Music Pt. III
07. Waxahatchee – Saint Cloud
06. Mac Miller – Circles
05. Dua Lipa – Future Nostalgia
04. Lil Uzi Vert – Eternal Atake
03. Spillage Village – Spilligion
02. Fiona Apple – Fetch The Bolt Cutters
01. Taylor Swift – Folklore
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Re: EOY 2020 - UPROXX (US)

Post by Donchano »

https://uproxx.com/music/best-songs-2020-list/

Songs list :

50. Billie Eilish – “Therefore I Am”
49. DaBaby – “Rockstar” Feat. Roddy Ricch
48. Dinner Party – “Freeze Tag” Feat. Cordae, Phoelix, and Snoop Dogg
47. Conan Gray – “Maniac”
46. Salem – “Starfall”
45. Polo G – “DND”
44. Lil Baby – “Emotionally Scarred”
43. Selena Gomez – “Look At Her Now”
42. G Herbo – “PTSD” Feat. Juice Wrld, Chance The Rapper, and Lil Uzi Vert
41. Giveon – “The Beach”
40. Bartess Strange – “Boomer”
39. Khruangbin and Leon Bridges – “Texas Sun”
38. Jackboys & Travis Scott – “Out West” Feat. Young Thug
37. The Weeknd – “Blinding Lights”
36. Rina Sawayama – “Comme Des Garcons (Like The Boys)”
35. Beabadoobee – “Care”
34. Future – “Life Is Good” Feat. Drake
33. Tobe Nwigwe – “Try Jesus”
32. Blackpink – “How You Like That”
31. Jean Dawson – “Devilish”
30. Soccer Mommy – “Circle The Drain”
29. Charli XCX – “Detonate”
28. Drake – “Chicago Freestyle” Feat. Giveon
27. Blimes And Gab – “Shellys (It’s Chill)”
26. Internet Money – “Lemonade” Feat. Don Toliver, Gunna, & Nav
25. Perfume Genius – “Nothing At All”
24. Jack Harlow – “Whats Poppin”
23. Travis Scott – “Franchise” Feat. Young Thug & M.I.A.
22. BTS – “Dynamite”
21. Waxahatchee – “Fire”
20. Dua Lipa – “Cool”
19. Aminé – “Becky”
18. Lady Gaga – “Rain On Me” Feat. Ariana Grande
17. Yves Tumor – “Gospel For A New Century”
16. Curtis Roach – “Bored In The House” Feat. Tyga
15. Taylor Swift – “The Last Great American Dynasty”
14. Chloe x Halle – “Do It”
13. Lil Uzi Vert – “Futsal Shuffle”
12. Mac Miller – “Good News”
11. Haim – “The Steps”
10. Pop Smoke – “Dior”
09. Ariana Grande – “34 + 35”
08. Terrace Martin – “Pig Feet” Feat. Denzel Curry, Kamasi Washington, G Perico, and Daylyt
07. Doja Cat – “Say So”
06. Phoebe Bridgers – “I Know The End”
05. The Killers – “My Own Soul’s Warning”
04. Megan Thee Stallion – “Savage Remix” Feat. Beyonce
03. Roddy Ricch – “The Box”
02. Run The Jewels – “A Few Words For The Firing Squad (Radiation)”
01. Cardi B – “WAP” Feat. Megan Thee Stallion
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Re: EOY 2020 - UPROXX (US)

Post by Jackson »

We are really going to end up with WAP as song of the year aren't we?
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Re: EOY 2020 - UPROXX (US)

Post by Sweepstakes Ron »

Jackson wrote: Wed Dec 02, 2020 7:13 pm We are really going to end up with WAP as song of the year aren't we?
Well, it's still way to early to make the call, but... yes.
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Re: EOY 2020 - UPROXX (US)

Post by Holden »

Sweepstakes Ron wrote: Wed Dec 02, 2020 7:17 pm
Jackson wrote: Wed Dec 02, 2020 7:13 pm We are really going to end up with WAP as song of the year aren't we?
Well, it's still way to early to make the call, but... yes.
I even like Cardi B but that song is a bit much for me. Hopefully it doesn't end up No. 1.
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Re: EOY 2020 - UPROXX (US)

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Re: EOY 2020 - UPROXX (US)

Post by Nassim »

Holden wrote: Wed Dec 02, 2020 7:29 pm
Sweepstakes Ron wrote: Wed Dec 02, 2020 7:17 pm
Jackson wrote: Wed Dec 02, 2020 7:13 pm We are really going to end up with WAP as song of the year aren't we?
Well, it's still way to early to make the call, but... yes.
I even like Cardi B but that song is a bit much for me. Hopefully it doesn't end up No. 1.
I don't mind, it's a fun song and there isn't really a lot of competition (and that's coming from someone that was REALLY annoyed at Bodak Yellow dominating the 2017 lists)
Donchano wrote: Wed Dec 02, 2020 5:00 pm 06. Phoebe Bridgers – “I Know The End”
I expect Phoebe Bridgers to suffer from vote splitting, if the mid of year lists are any indication, but this song is the clear standout for me, possibly my song of the year.
I think Fiona Apple and Run the Jewels will face the same voce splitting problem.
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Re: EOY 2020 - UPROXX (US)

Post by Jackson »

Nassim wrote: Wed Dec 02, 2020 8:42 pm
Holden wrote: Wed Dec 02, 2020 7:29 pm
Sweepstakes Ron wrote: Wed Dec 02, 2020 7:17 pm

Well, it's still way to early to make the call, but... yes.
I even like Cardi B but that song is a bit much for me. Hopefully it doesn't end up No. 1.
I don't mind, it's a fun song and there isn't really a lot of competition (and that's coming from someone that was REALLY annoyed at Bodak Yellow dominating the 2017 lists)
My main problem with WAP is that I don't think it's actually a very fun song. Both Cardi and Megan sound like they're pissed off at the listener rather than having a fun time singing ridiculous lyrics. I enjoy lots of mindless, party-oriented rap -- my top 1,000 has tracks like Hot in Herre, I Wish, and Bust a Move -- WAP lacks the playful, carefree vibe of tracks like that. To me, its appeal lies solely in the crudeness of its lyrics, which for some reason critics and pop culture writers viewed as revolutionary (do they not remember, for example, Kelis' Milkshake from nearly two decades ago?). The beat isn't particularly interesting or fun either. There's really not much to be said for WAP other than that it was very popular, featured two popular female rappers at the (likely) peak of their careers, and made a cultural impact.
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Re: EOY 2020 - UPROXX (US)

Post by prosecutorgodot »

Jackson wrote: Wed Dec 02, 2020 9:22 pm
Nassim wrote: Wed Dec 02, 2020 8:42 pm
Holden wrote: Wed Dec 02, 2020 7:29 pm

I even like Cardi B but that song is a bit much for me. Hopefully it doesn't end up No. 1.
I don't mind, it's a fun song and there isn't really a lot of competition (and that's coming from someone that was REALLY annoyed at Bodak Yellow dominating the 2017 lists)
My main problem with WAP is that I don't think it's actually a very fun song. Both Cardi and Megan sound like they're pissed off at the listener rather than having a fun time singing ridiculous lyrics. I enjoy lots of mindless, party-oriented rap -- my top 1,000 has tracks like Hot in Herre, I Wish, and Bust a Move -- WAP lacks the playful, carefree vibe of tracks like that. To me, its appeal lies solely in the crudeness of its lyrics, which for some reason critics and pop culture writers viewed as revolutionary (do they not remember, for example, Kelis' Milkshake from nearly two decades ago?). The beat isn't particularly interesting or fun either. There's really not much to be said for WAP other than that it was very popular, featured two popular female rappers at the (likely) peak of their careers, and made a cultural impact.
I like that Cardi sounds so intense, it's one of the most fun aspects of the song for me. She sounds really hot and bothered, you know?

And that truck honk gets me every time, too.
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Re: EOY 2020 - UPROXX (US)

Post by Harold »

Arsalan wrote: Wed Dec 02, 2020 7:44 pm I don't know what is happening to critics (BTS? Ariana Grande? Drake? Seriously?)
OK, I'll give you the first three, but I love Seriously. He's one of the most significant artists to emerge in the last 10 years.
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Re: EOY 2020 - UPROXX (US)

Post by Arsalan »

Harold wrote: Thu Dec 03, 2020 1:12 am
Arsalan wrote: Wed Dec 02, 2020 7:44 pm I don't know what is happening to critics (BTS? Ariana Grande? Drake? Seriously?)
OK, I'll give you the first three, but I love Seriously. He's one of the most significant artists to emerge in the last 10 years.
I am glad you like Seriously.
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Re: EOY 2020 - UPROXX (US)

Post by Schüttelbirne »

Considering "WAP"'s performance on the EOY lists this year, it really does seem astounding that Seriously's "Suck My Face with Your Pussy" did not make the EOY list last year.
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Re: EOY 2020 - UPROXX (US)

Post by mileswide »

Best indie albums of 2020:

https://uproxx.com/indie/best-indie-alb ... 2020-list/

Genre list from established non-genre site, eligible?

(If you can still call it a genre list, considering its loose inclusion criteria)
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Re: EOY 2020 - UPROXX (US)

Post by Cold Butterfly »

So are we gonna talk about some of the posts Arsalan and Schüttelbrine have made on these topics recently? Comments like “I’m surprised Suck My Pussy With Your Face didnt top the EOY list” and “This album needs to be made by a Black artist to be acclaimed” are so obviously rooted in sexism and racism. If you don’t like a song it’s fine, but statements like these are perplexing.
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Post by Schüttelbirne »

Cold Butterfly wrote: Tue Dec 08, 2020 2:31 pm So are we gonna talk about some of the posts Arsalan and Schüttelbrine have made on these topics recently? Comments like “I’m surprised Suck My Pussy With Your Face didnt top the EOY list” and “This album needs to be made by a Black artist to be acclaimed” are so obviously rooted in sexism and racism. If you don’t like a song it’s fine, but statements like these are perplexing.
First of all, you're misquoting and pulling the quotes out of context.
Considering "WAP"'s performance on the EOY lists this year, it really does seem astounding that Seriously's "Suck My Face with Your Pussy" did not make the EOY list last year.
That was in reply to Harold's joke about the artist Seriously (who's not actually a significant artist). I looked for an artist named Seriously and found a band who have actually released a song named:



I found that to be oddly fitting considering that another song containing the same word is rather surprisingly (for me at least) dominating the EOY lists. I don't see what's sexist about the post itself and thus can't see the validity of your accusation.

Even more baffling is the accusation of comments I made that supposedly were rooted in racism. The only topic I could possibly gather would be the Grammy discussion, but nothing I never stated that an album needed to be made by a Black artist to be acclaimed. What I said was, that I couldn't fathom, both The Weeknd and Brittany Howard not making the list considering their popularity, which led me to assume, that they were blocked by the committe for whatever reason; I am also not the only one who made that assumption. I don't see where there's anything even remotely resembling your accusation in my posts.

Henceforth, I shall restrict myself from trying to make a joke (or write anything at all) and instead just stay quiet. Making a joke (and maybe it's a dumb joke, but I feel like there should be a place in the world for dumb jokes) is really not worth the trouble of being accused of sexism AND racism in the same sentence. It reminds me why I normally stay away from social media. Maybe I should've stuck with that...
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Re: EOY 2020 - UPROXX (US)

Post by Cold Butterfly »

Schüttelbirne wrote: Tue Dec 08, 2020 3:36 pm
Cold Butterfly wrote: Tue Dec 08, 2020 2:31 pm So are we gonna talk about some of the posts Arsalan and Schüttelbrine have made on these topics recently? Comments like “I’m surprised Suck My Pussy With Your Face didnt top the EOY list” and “This album needs to be made by a Black artist to be acclaimed” are so obviously rooted in sexism and racism. If you don’t like a song it’s fine, but statements like these are perplexing.
First of all, you're misquoting and pulling the quotes out of context.
Considering "WAP"'s performance on the EOY lists this year, it really does seem astounding that Seriously's "Suck My Face with Your Pussy" did not make the EOY list last year.
That was in reply to Harold's joke about the artist Seriously (who's not actually a significant artist). I looked for an artist named Seriously and found a band who have actually released a song named:



I found that to be oddly fitting considering that another song containing the same word is rather surprisingly (for me at least) dominating the EOY lists. I don't see what's sexist about the post itself and thus can't see the validity of your accusation.

Even more baffling is the accusation of comments I made that supposedly were rooted in racism. The only topic I could possibly gather would be the Grammy discussion, but nothing I never stated that an album needed to be made by a Black artist to be acclaimed. What I said was, that I couldn't fathom, both The Weeknd and Brittany Howard not making the list considering their popularity, which led me to assume, that they were blocked by the committe for whatever reason; I am also not the only one who made that assumption. I don't see where there's anything even remotely resembling your accusation in my posts.

Henceforth, I shall restrict myself from trying to make a joke (or write anything at all) and instead just stay quiet. Making a joke (and maybe it's a dumb joke, but I feel like there should be a place in the world for dumb jokes) is really not worth the trouble of being accused of sexism AND racism in the same sentence. It reminds me why I normally stay away from social media. Maybe I should've stuck with that...
The comment about racism was rooted at one of Arslan's posts earlier in the thread, not at you. I didn't know about the Seriously song either, but next time please make it clear what you're referring to. My apologies.
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Arsalan, I'm very into film (especially the Oscars) and I feel that no one really questions the selection of Moonlight as the best of 2016. It's near the top on TSPDT. Also, not trying to say that you are explicitly biased here, but I feel as though we are still seeing your way of thinking that people who have been good for longer are inherently better. There were many great female directors in 2019, some who a vast set of critics and viewers believe might have stood up to those you mentioned. By blaming the industry alone for acclaim you are discounting a lot of very talented arists. Many people liked Lizzo and Cardi B and Drake! They aren't just winning industry awards, they are placing high here on AMF as well.

As I've stated before, it's pretty easy to see when the Oscars get it 'wrong' (see: Crash, Green Book, and many others) and Moonlight just isn't one of those films that hasn't held up, so I don't really understand where you are coming from on that one.
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Post by charliepanayi »

...who on earth thinks Moonlight isn't one of the most acclaimed films of the 2010s?
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Holden wrote: Tue Dec 08, 2020 6:28 pm Arsalan, I'm very into film (especially the Oscars) and I feel that no one really questions the selection of Moonlight as the best of 2016. It's near the top on TSPDT. Also, not trying to say that you are explicitly biased here, but I feel as though we are still seeing your way of thinking that people who have been good for longer are inherently better. There were many great female directors in 2019, some who a vast set of critics and viewers believe might have stood up to those you mentioned. By blaming the industry alone for acclaim you are discounting a lot of very talented arists. Many people liked Lizzo and Cardi B and Drake! They aren't just winning industry awards, they are placing high here on AMF as well.

As I've stated before, it's pretty easy to see when the Oscars get it 'wrong' (see: Crash, Green Book, and many others) and Moonlight just isn't one of those films that hasn't held up, so I don't really understand where you are coming from on that one.
Also, the fact that Arsalan describes Moonlight as "a movie about racism" kind of indicates that he hasn't actually seen the film. It's not about racism at all (unless, very broadly, you want to make a case that it's "about" the systemic racism that leads Black men to decide that the drug business is the only way they can earn a living).

And his mention of Green Book is, frankly, even weirder, because most people saw its Best Picture win as a regression rather than a continuation of whatever progress Moonlight's win represented. Green Book is very much the kind of old-fashioned, safe, distanced, focused-on-the-personal-growth-of-the-white-protagonist "movie about racism" that Hollywood spent decades congratulating itself for being "brave" enough to make.
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charliepanayi wrote: Tue Dec 08, 2020 6:51 pm ...who on earth thinks Moonlight isn't one of the most acclaimed films of the 2010s?
I said it was acclaimed.
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Harold wrote: Tue Dec 08, 2020 6:52 pm
Holden wrote: Tue Dec 08, 2020 6:28 pm Arsalan, I'm very into film (especially the Oscars) and I feel that no one really questions the selection of Moonlight as the best of 2016. It's near the top on TSPDT. Also, not trying to say that you are explicitly biased here, but I feel as though we are still seeing your way of thinking that people who have been good for longer are inherently better. There were many great female directors in 2019, some who a vast set of critics and viewers believe might have stood up to those you mentioned. By blaming the industry alone for acclaim you are discounting a lot of very talented arists. Many people liked Lizzo and Cardi B and Drake! They aren't just winning industry awards, they are placing high here on AMF as well.

As I've stated before, it's pretty easy to see when the Oscars get it 'wrong' (see: Crash, Green Book, and many others) and Moonlight just isn't one of those films that hasn't held up, so I don't really understand where you are coming from on that one.
Also, the fact that Arsalan describes Moonlight as "a movie about racism" kind of indicates that he hasn't actually seen the film. It's not about racism at all (unless, very broadly, you want to make a case that it's "about" the systemic racism that leads Black men to decide that the drug business is the only way they can earn a living).

And his mention of Green Book is, frankly, even weirder, because most people saw its Best Picture win as a regression rather than a continuation of whatever progress Moonlight's win represented. Green Book is very much the kind of old-fashioned, safe, distanced, focused-on-the-personal-growth-of-the-white-protagonist "movie about racism" that Hollywood spent decades congratulating itself for being "brave" enough to make.
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Post by Harold »

Arsalan wrote: Tue Dec 08, 2020 7:12 pm So in my opinion, the decision was a bit shocking and the Oscars had to give the award to Moonlight to make angry people and critics forget the 2016's controversy.
I don't want to get in the weeds on this discussion either (which is way off topic as well), but I will say that, as deserving a Best Picture winner as I think Moonlight was, I do agree that it owes a lot of its victory to that "Oscars So White" controversy from the previous year. Again, putting aside the fact that it's a legitimately great film, I don't think there's any way a low-budget independent movie with an all-Black cast (and a gay theme) would have won the Academy Award for Best Picture in any previous year. Especially when you consider that 2016's overwhelming Oscar favorite (and the movie that, for at least a few minutes, everyone thought had actually won) was La La Land, a homage to Old Hollywood that tied an all-time record with 14 nominations. As deservedly acclaimed as Moonlight was, it winning Best Picture was inarguably a reaction.
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Re: EOY 2020 - UPROXX (US)

Post by Henrik »

Arsalan, it’s a bit hard for me to read when you write ”you know that was the best...”. Art is subjective. You can still discuss their choices, but see the beauty in that taste varies among people, as well as critics and academies.
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Arsalan wrote: Tue Dec 08, 2020 7:12 pm
Holden wrote: Tue Dec 08, 2020 6:28 pm Arsalan, I'm very into film (especially the Oscars) and I feel that no one really questions the selection of Moonlight as the best of 2016. It's near the top on TSPDT. Also, not trying to say that you are explicitly biased here, but I feel as though we are still seeing your way of thinking that people who have been good for longer are inherently better. There were many great female directors in 2019, some who a vast set of critics and viewers believe might have stood up to those you mentioned. By blaming the industry alone for acclaim you are discounting a lot of very talented arists. Many people liked Lizzo and Cardi B and Drake! They aren't just winning industry awards, they are placing high here on AMF as well.

As I've stated before, it's pretty easy to see when the Oscars get it 'wrong' (see: Crash, Green Book, and many others) and Moonlight just isn't one of those films that hasn't held up, so I don't really understand where you are coming from on that one.
I really don't want to continue this discussion, but I will give my opinion about Moonlight. Most of the people (at least in my country) didn't like the movie. It has got 7.4 on imdb. I also watch movies based on TSPDT, but it is clear that the academy awards' critics are different from other critics. Even if I consider Moonlight as a great movie, I still don't think it won because of its greatness, I believe it won because of its concept. You probably remember those controversies in the 88th Academy Awards, I think Moonlight won because of those 2 reasons, not because of its greatness. Do the Right Thing was also the best movie of 1989 but surprisingly, It didn't won Best Picture, neither do Brokeback Mountain, Movies that almost have the same concept as Moonlight, So people thought the Oscars don't like these kind of movies, but how come Moonlight won although it had the same concept as those 2 movies? You definitely know that Do the Right Thing and Brokeback Mountain were the best movie of their respective years and they are better than Moonlight. So in my opinion, the decision was a bit shocking and the Oscars had to give the award to Moonlight to make angry people and critics forget the 2016's controversy.

This is just absolute nonsense. Don't cite IMDb of all places as a symbol of a film's reception; they are notoriously susceptible to internet hate campaigns and, surprise surprise, the story about a gay black man that won best picture got a lot of backlash in the aftermath of its success. On any reasonable film site, Moonlight is treated as an all-time great.

Just from a bit of quick research, Moonlight had an 8.4 before its Oscar win - its drop to a 7.4 is clear backlash unrelated to its quality. The fact you're using such obvious racist and homophobic backlash to rant about how undeserving black artists are when they win awards is a problem. Combine this with your comments on foreign language music, and it's really painting a strong picture of you as an unapologetic racist. If this is going to be your attitude going forward, please don't stick around.

Moonlight winning is simple enough - sure, it might have had a boosted chance due to the backlash toward the previous year, but it also has a 99 average on Metacritic. Only one film did better during the 2010s with critics. Just because the Academy had to be called out to do the right thing doesn't mean the right choice magically became the wrong one.
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Post by Cold Butterfly »

Arsalan wrote: Tue Dec 08, 2020 6:05 pm Okay, So last night I had a very useful discussion with some of the forumers. I learned new things and we also talked about my favorite album of all time (Nevermind). I don't want to discuss about this subject but since you mentioned my name, Here's my point of view. You will disagree but I don't care. Neither I nor you will change our opinion.


In the 88th Academy Awards, None of the nominees were black which caused a lot of controversy, I believe that made critics to praise movies and songs made by black people a lot ever since, also flicks and records about racism (no matter if they are good enough). In the following year, the winner of "Best Picture" was Moonlight (A movie about racism that was critically acclaimed), So many people didn't like the movie cause it wasn't the best movie of 2016. These things also happened in Grammy Awards. Last year the winner of the best rock song of the year was composed by a black guy. The song was about racism but it wasn't the best rock song of the year. Lizzo also won so many awards but was it because of her good records? I don't think so. If you check AM's top 5 songs of each year since 2015, you will realize that racism and sexism really affects critics' picks. Last year, again in the Oscars, so many women criticized the academy award for not nominating female directors (Did they really think there is a director as good as Scorsese and Tarantino that must have been nominated?), I think they don't understand that we should not let social and political issues enter the movie and the music industry and in the award shows critics' should choose a record or a movie based on its greatness, not because of its concept and message. As I mentioned before, racism is awful and it is against humanity but that has absolutely nothing to do with music. Drake, Cardi B, Lizzo and many other artists have benefited from social movements. Kendrick Lamar and Kanye were really great and deserved all the acclaim they received but nowadays critics are involving social issues in their decisions which lead average songs like WAP dominate EOY lists. These artists and records aren't good enough but for some obvious reasons, critics to praise them a lot.

If you don't agree with me, Let me ask you a question, Why didn't the academy awards choose "Do the Right Thing" as the best movie of the year but 2 years ago they picked "Green Book" as the winner? See, it certainly affects critics.

I have also talked to people about these things and most of them have said that if you make a movie, a song, a video game about racism, LGBT and women's power, you will receive acclaim, no matter how good your work is. You can also check the academy awards' new rules, you will realize what I mean.
Racism and sexism didn't begin in 2015. You're diminishing the acclaim towards works by Black artists and other marginalized groups as virtue signaling when those works deserve their acclaim. You're also diminishing the disenfranchisement which has been a topic of many marginalized people's arts (and not only of Black artists but Women and Latin American artists) which is racist and sexist in itself.

Social and political issues have been responsible for creating many of history's best works. The reason why is because people's lives are decided by those issues. Your claim that those issues and art should be separated represents an unrealistic view of what art should be and is in general. You've said yourself that you're favorite album of all time is Nevermind. One of the reasons why many people loved that album upon release was because it was representative of the angst and uncertainty many in Generation X was feeling at the time. So why is it okay that social issues can be tied with Nirvana's music but Cardi B's can't?

Also, BleuPanda, thank you for your very insightful post. I felt that the stereotyping of Latin American music was completely offensive.
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Re: EOY 2020 - UPROXX (US)

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Re: EOY 2020 - UPROXX (US)

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Re: EOY 2020 - UPROXX (US)

Post by Harold »

Anyhoo, how 'bout the fact that Sturgill Simpson finished one spot ahead of Harry Styles on that Uproxx list?

Anybody? Anybody? Uh, guys? ...
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Re: EOY 2020 - UPROXX (US)

Post by Holden »

Arsalan wrote: Tue Dec 08, 2020 8:36 pm
BleuPanda wrote: Tue Dec 08, 2020 8:12 pm
Arsalan wrote: Tue Dec 08, 2020 7:12 pm

I really don't want to continue this discussion, but I will give my opinion about Moonlight. Most of the people (at least in my country) didn't like the movie. It has got 7.4 on imdb. I also watch movies based on TSPDT, but it is clear that the academy awards' critics are different from other critics. Even if I consider Moonlight as a great movie, I still don't think it won because of its greatness, I believe it won because of its concept. You probably remember those controversies in the 88th Academy Awards, I think Moonlight won because of those 2 reasons, not because of its greatness. Do the Right Thing was also the best movie of 1989 but surprisingly, It didn't won Best Picture, neither do Brokeback Mountain, Movies that almost have the same concept as Moonlight, So people thought the Oscars don't like these kind of movies, but how come Moonlight won although it had the same concept as those 2 movies? You definitely know that Do the Right Thing and Brokeback Mountain were the best movie of their respective years and they are better than Moonlight. So in my opinion, the decision was a bit shocking and the Oscars had to give the award to Moonlight to make angry people and critics forget the 2016's controversy.

This is just absolute nonsense. Don't cite IMDb of all places as a symbol of a film's reception; they are notoriously susceptible to internet hate campaigns and, surprise surprise, the story about a gay black man that won best picture got a lot of backlash in the aftermath of its success. On any reasonable film site, Moonlight is treated as an all-time great.

Just from a bit of quick research, Moonlight had an 8.4 before its Oscar win - its drop to a 7.4 is clear backlash unrelated to its quality. The fact you're using such obvious racist and homophobic backlash to rant about how undeserving black artists are when they win awards is a problem. Combine this with your comments on foreign language music, and it's really painting a strong picture of you as an unapologetic racist. If this is going to be your attitude going forward, please don't stick around.

Moonlight winning is simple enough - sure, it might have had a boosted chance due to the backlash toward the previous year, but it also has a 99 average on Metacritic. Only one film did better during the 2010s with critics. Just because the Academy had to be called out to do the right thing doesn't mean the right choice magically became the wrong one.
OMG, I hate to continue this discussion, BluePanda, Why are you accusing me of being racist? I am not. I just shared my opinion. That's all. Someone asked me why I said those things about WAP, and I just shared my point of view. I know I may have attitude problem, I will probably change as I get older.
Arsalan, here's the thing. What you aren't really seeing here is explicit versus implicit racism. Are you spouting off about how black people are mooches or that Asian people can't drive? No, you are not. But the comments you are making are subtly and, quick possibly accidentally, painting a picture of implicit bias against non-white forms of media. What you've said, and doubled down on, is that there is a clear divide between what you are a fan of (Nirvana, rock, etc.) and what you aren't a fan of (WAP, Latin music, etc.). When you say things like how you can't believe that Latin music, not one song, but Latin music as a whole, doesn't belong on EOY lists, then what you are saying is very very clear. There is nothing wrong about saying 'I'm not a fan of Latin Music.' Hell, Latin music isn't really MY genre of choice, but I don't think that it should be excluded because of that. Everything you have said about WAP, which you don't HAVE to like, or Moonlight, or anything else is that it is only receiving acclaim because of the fact that it is made by black artists. Which is just not true. Again, you don't have to enjoy anything you don't want to enjoy, but to claim that it is devoid of quality and simply a diversity vote is definitely hinting at implicit bias. Which is something we all struggle with, but we have to understand and realize it and not double down.

You have also used several generalizations that are just ridiculous. Brokeback Mountain and Moonlight and Do The Right Thing do not 'have the same concept.' They are completely different films, with different ideas, made in different political climates. Aside from gay characters, Brokeback Mountain and Moonlight have nothing in common. Do the Right Thing has a completely different point to make then Moonlight, even if they are both techniquely about race. Earlier, you confused 'film about racism' with 'film made mainly by black people.' Which is again, a hint towards the biases you are possessing here. You have denied context in each situation. Moonlight has, time and time again, been deconstructed in a powerful way about how great of a film it is at portraying characters and situations not often seen. Again, I love awards and the Oscars, so I've done a far bit of looking into these things in the past, and I cannot think of anyone who thinks that Moonlight was deserving of its win, even if it isn't the best film of 2016, so again, I really just don't see any industry wide evidence for the claims you are making.

Ultimately, I don't want to send you running from this site or anything, but I want you to understand that the things you have said are not too far removed from explicitly stating racist things. I don't think that is your intention, and you are certainly welcome to your opinion. We just want you to understand that what you are saying has implications towards an overall negative appearance of your belief system. And you're young, I get it. But you also can't come into a diverse area, like this music forum, and expect others to hold your beliefs.

I'm definitely done in this conversation after this, and since we've gotten the lists we need from this section I don't think it would be in the wrong for Henrik to lock this thread, but I also think it is important to try to educate those who are not educated in this incredibly important issues.

I'm really sorry I've participated in this incredibly off-topic conversation to those I know it bothers. And Arsalan, I really don't want you to leave the forum, but I do need you to have some level of self reflection here.
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Re: EOY 2020 - UPROXX (US)

Post by Holden »

Harold wrote: Tue Dec 08, 2020 9:06 pm Anyhoo, how 'bout the fact that Sturgill Simpson finished one spot ahead of Harry Styles on that Uproxx list?

Anybody? Anybody? Uh, guys? ...
Honestly, never really been a Harry Styles person, so I'm happy to see that poptimism hasn't elevated him above some more obscure picks.
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Re: EOY 2020 - UPROXX (US)

Post by acroamor »

Holden wrote: Tue Dec 08, 2020 9:09 pm
Harold wrote: Tue Dec 08, 2020 9:06 pm Anyhoo, how 'bout the fact that Sturgill Simpson finished one spot ahead of Harry Styles on that Uproxx list?

Anybody? Anybody? Uh, guys? ...
Honestly, never really been a Harry Styles person, so I'm happy to see that poptimism hasn't elevated him above some more obscure picks.
It's very funny to me in this situation that Sturgill Simpson has more major category Grammy nominations than Harry Styles does.
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Re: EOY 2020 - UPROXX (US)

Post by Holden »

acroamor wrote: Tue Dec 08, 2020 9:21 pm
Holden wrote: Tue Dec 08, 2020 9:09 pm
Harold wrote: Tue Dec 08, 2020 9:06 pm Anyhoo, how 'bout the fact that Sturgill Simpson finished one spot ahead of Harry Styles on that Uproxx list?

Anybody? Anybody? Uh, guys? ...
Honestly, never really been a Harry Styles person, so I'm happy to see that poptimism hasn't elevated him above some more obscure picks.
It's very funny to me in this situation that Sturgill Simpson has more major category Grammy nominations than Harry Styles does.
Honestly the major Grammy categories at this point aren’t really where I look-you find way better albums and songs in the rock/electronic/R&B categories than the AOTY/ROTY.
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Re: EOY 2020 - UPROXX (US)

Post by Harold »

Holden wrote: Tue Dec 08, 2020 9:26 pm
acroamor wrote: Tue Dec 08, 2020 9:21 pm It's very funny to me in this situation that Sturgill Simpson has more major category Grammy nominations than Harry Styles does.
Honestly the major Grammy categories at this point aren’t really where I look-you find way better albums and songs in the rock/electronic/R&B categories than the AOTY/ROTY.
I love that my "question," which was intended as a completely arbitrary way to poke fun at how off-topic this thread had gotten, has actually created a conversation.
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Re: EOY 2020 - UPROXX (US)

Post by Mason »

So even though this thread has been dead for a while, I stumbled upon it and I wanted to give my two cents on the topics discussed.
Arsalan wrote: Tue Dec 08, 2020 6:05 pm In the 88th Academy Awards, None of the nominees were black which caused a lot of controversy, I believe that made critics to praise movies and songs made by black people a lot ever since, also flicks and records about racism (no matter if they are good enough)
I agree that there's been a shift towards including more non-white artists, but that's a good thing. As well as that, music and films that discuss racism get a lot of attention because racism is still a topical issue that needs to be discussed, especially with what's happened in the last 7 months.

The idea that critics are favoring social impact over quality is something I've thought about as well. I do believe sometimes critics try to be too "woke" (remember Pitchfork's description of Justin Bieber's "Sorry" in their EOD list?) However, most of the time critics picks are fine because the songs they select are good. "Alright" wasn't the top song of the decade (according to AM) just because of its lyrics about race issues, it's because it's a good track.

However, it's subjective. I don't agree with WAP being the top song of the year. I think it's being gross and shocking for the sake of it (which is fine in some instances, but IMO not this one), and I don't really see how critics find it "revolutionary". I actually think its placement is more due to a recent trend of critics favoring popular songs in their EOY lists. But if they find it good and groundbreaking, then that's fine with me. Again, it's all subjective.
Arsalan wrote: Tue Dec 08, 2020 6:05 pm
I think they don't understand that we should not let social and political issues enter the movie and the music industry and in the award shows critics' should choose a record or a movie based on its greatness, not because of its concept and message. As I mentioned before, racism is awful and it is against humanity but that has absolutely nothing to do with music.
Horrible take. Popular music and pretty much any other kind of media has always been about contemporary social and political issues. Look at "The Message", "A Change is Gonna Come", or "Strange Fruit".

Music is an art form, and art by its nature promotes artistic expression, and so music can be about any topic. The topic, some of the time, is what makes or breaks a song.

I get where you're coming from, Arsalan. Some people use music as escapism from the stress of real world issues, or they just don't care about real world issues, so they don't want to listen to music that features said issues as the focus. However, believing said issues should should be separate from the industry because they have "nothing to do with music" just seems silly.
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Re: EOY 2020 - UPROXX (US)

Post by Marlon »

C'mon guys! Don't be too harsh on Arsalan. He is just 15 and his favourite album is "Nevermind", so for his age he does have a great taste. He might not be able to express his thoughts properly, but I am sure he is far from being a racist. What he meant to say, I assume, by pointing out some changes in political climate in movie and music industries, is that we are witnessing the process which, in general, has positive meaning (anti-racist, anti-homophobic, gender equality oriented etc...), but occasionally turns out to be it's own opposite. Although I am more in the music now, my profession is movie industry, I myself was a movie critic some decades ago, and I clearly remember the yearly and all time lists on which movies like "The Birth of a Nation" or "Gone with the Wind" circulated prominently. Today, David W. Griffith, although considered the greatest silent director in his time and until recently, is marginalized just because his political views from 1915. are considered racist, or even pure propaganda nowadays. Ok, that might even be true, but expelling D.W. Griffith from movie history books wouldn't change the fact that majority of American society (and not only American) shared the same political view towards black people, hundred years ago. It speaks only about hypocrisy and cynicism of todays society. Civil Rights Movements in the second half of the 20th century were not provoked by D.W. Griffith, but by an American society as a whole. "Gone with the Wind" is one of the most beloved films of all time, its initial first run took almost 20 years (from the US release in 1939., through Western European releases after the war, concluding with the communist countries during fifties), and not a single critic mentioned racism until couple of years ago! The critics hailed its lavish Technicolor and Cinemascope, epic and accurate depiction of Civil War and Reconstruction, impressive acting, believable romance, and the movie in general was valued high above the novel it was based on. Today, it is written off as a racist garbage, glorification of Southern way of life, cheesy melodrama, in which even black slaves seems unnaturally happy, despite the circumstances they were living in. German film historians claimed that it was Hitler's favourite movie and that he ordered similar (and equally impressive) epic "Annelie" (1941, by Josef von Baky, director of later masterpiece "The Adventures of Baron Munchausen") from his UFA studios. The movie was screened all over occupied Europe five years before "Gone with the Wind" and was an enormous success! I don't even want to open the discussion about "me too" movement and Harvey Weinstein, but just a small hint that in the Golden Age of Hollywood, almost every producer used the similar methods like Weinstein. Book "Hollywood Babylon" by the great underground filmmaker Kenneth Anger is surely a testament to the era. But enough with the movie history, let's get back to the music, or more precisely, rock field. Praised for great music, sexual and all other kinds of revolutions, liberal rock movement of 1967. showed also some negative sides. To avoid drugs misuse this time, let's speak only about "groupies" and generally neglectful treatment of girls and women, by our macho idols like Mick Jagger, Jimi Hendrix or Jim Morrison, which was "heroic" at a time, but would be considered offensive today. Riot Grrrl Movement by Nirvana counterparts Bikini Kill, 7 Year Bitch, Huggy Bear etc. was a direct feminist reaction to stereotypical role model of male rock heroes of the eighties. But we will not dismiss The Rolling Stones or Guns N' Roses because of that, as we will not write off Glam Rock movement just because Gary Glitter was a pedophile and child abuser. In short, every epoch has its own politically correct standards, and what seems normal today, might be considered totally inappropriate in 20 years or less, but we cannot treat and manipulate with works of art (music, movies, literature) as a daily tool for expressing our ever changing political views. "Moonlight" was maybe the most acclaimed movie of 2016. but not all of us think it was the best movie of the year, like, I am sure not all of us on this forum think that "Fetch the Bolt Cutters" is the best album of the year, though we must respect its universal acclaim. So, Arsalan, you are on the right track, please don't give up in developing your music and movie taste, and please don't give up on this forum.
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Re: EOY 2020 - UPROXX (US)

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Re: EOY 2020 - UPROXX (US)

Post by Mason »

Arsalan wrote: Sat Jan 23, 2021 11:07 am
Marlon wrote: Sat Jan 23, 2021 3:39 am C'mon guys! Don't be too harsh on Arsalan. He is just 15 and his favourite album is "Nevermind", so for his age he does have a great taste. He might not be able to express his thoughts properly, but I am sure he is far from being a racist. What he meant to say, I assume, by pointing out some changes in political climate in movie and music industries, is that we are witnessing the process which, in general, has positive meaning (anti-racist, anti-homophobic, gender equality oriented etc...), but occasionally turns out to be it's own opposite. Although I am more in the music now, my profession is movie industry, I myself was a movie critic some decades ago, and I clearly remember the yearly and all time lists on which movies like "The Birth of a Nation" or "Gone with the Wind" circulated prominently. Today, David W. Griffith, although considered the greatest silent director in his time and until recently, is marginalized just because his political views from 1915. are considered racist, or even pure propaganda nowadays. Ok, that might even be true, but expelling D.W. Griffith from movie history books wouldn't change the fact that majority of American society (and not only American) shared the same political view towards black people, hundred years ago. It speaks only about hypocrisy and cynicism of todays society. Civil Rights Movements in the second half of the 20th century were not provoked by D.W. Griffith, but by an American society as a whole. "Gone with the Wind" is one of the most beloved films of all time, its initial first run took almost 20 years (from the US release in 1939., through Western European releases after the war, concluding with the communist countries during fifties), and not a single critic mentioned racism until couple of years ago! The critics hailed its lavish Technicolor and Cinemascope, epic and accurate depiction of Civil War and Reconstruction, impressive acting, believable romance, and the movie in general was valued high above the novel it was based on. Today, it is written off as a racist garbage, glorification of Southern way of life, cheesy melodrama, in which even black slaves seems unnaturally happy, despite the circumstances they were living in. German film historians claimed that it was Hitler's favourite movie and that he ordered similar (and equally impressive) epic "Annelie" (1941, by Josef von Baky, director of later masterpiece "The Adventures of Baron Munchausen") from his UFA studios. The movie was screened all over occupied Europe five years before "Gone with the Wind" and was an enormous success! I don't even want to open the discussion about "me too" movement and Harvey Weinstein, but just a small hint that in the Golden Age of Hollywood, almost every producer used the similar methods like Weinstein. Book "Hollywood Babylon" by the great underground filmmaker Kenneth Anger is surely a testament to the era. But enough with the movie history, let's get back to the music, or more precisely, rock field. Praised for great music, sexual and all other kinds of revolutions, liberal rock movement of 1967. showed also some negative sides. To avoid drugs misuse this time, let's speak only about "groupies" and generally neglectful treatment of girls and women, by our macho idols like Mick Jagger, Jimi Hendrix or Jim Morrison, which was "heroic" at a time, but would be considered offensive today. Riot Grrrl Movement by Nirvana counterparts Bikini Kill, 7 Year Bitch, Huggy Bear etc. was a direct feminist reaction to stereotypical role model of male rock heroes of the eighties. But we will not dismiss The Rolling Stones or Guns N' Roses because of that, as we will not write off Glam Rock movement just because Gary Glitter was a pedophile and child abuser. In short, every epoch has its own politically correct standards, and what seems normal today, might be considered totally inappropriate in 20 years or less, but we cannot treat and manipulate with works of art (music, movies, literature) as a daily tool for expressing our ever changing political views. "Moonlight" was maybe the most acclaimed movie of 2016. but not all of us think it was the best movie of the year, like, I am sure not all of us on this forum think that "Fetch the Bolt Cutters" is the best album of the year, though we must respect its universal acclaim. So, Arsalan, you are on the right track, please don't give up in developing your music and movie taste, and please don't give up on this forum.
Thank you Marlon! So technically I can not be racist cause it is not a thing in my country, my father is white but my uncle isn't, my grandma is white but my grandpa is not. In my country people respect each other a lot and they don't care about skin color at all.

I really thought about this whole discussion throughout the last month, all I want to say is that at the end of the year you should be judged not by your skin color or gender, but based on the quality of a movie or a record that you release. If critics wanna involve social issues in their lists or reviews, that's okay but then the title "Best Songs/Albums of the year/decade/all time" doesn't make sense anymore cause they aren't ranking them based on their greatness and quality. I really don't see the point when people are complaining about a list that doesn't include a record by a female or a black artist in the top 10, top 20, etc, cause music is subjective, critics have their own opinion and not including an album from a non-white artist doesn't mean they are racist. People are equal no matter if they are male or female, black or white. Back in the day critics used to be honest and share their honest thoughts but nowadays they aren't cause people complain a lot and magazines just wanna publish a list to satisfy people and stop being accused. I saw someone complaining about why there isn't an album by a female rapper in the top 100 rap albums of all time, the answer is simple, "there are 100 albums by male rappers that they think is better and that's it". It is like saying why Becky Lynch vs Charlotte Flair isn't in the top 50 pro wrestling matches of all time, it's because there are 50 better matches, as simple as that! Last year, Natalie Portman was complaining that there weren't any female director nominated for best director in the Academy Awards, She doesn't understand that the Academy Awards does not hate women, they just thought there were 5 better directors who were not female!

I think if we stop complaining, critics may be honest with us again. They have praised great black artists such as Public Enemy, Marvin Gaye and Jay-Z but now they are exaggerating about non-white and female artists. A critic called WAP "revolutionary", that's is the dumbest thing I've ever heard from a music critic! K-pop getting critics attention really pisses me off (awful and stupid) but I haven't cared about critics opinion over last 3 or 4 years, the title "Best songs of the year" is now a clickbait. Good old lists!

And even if the forumers hate me, that's fine but I am not leaving this forum cause it's freakin' awesome! These are just my opinions, you will either agree or DISAGREE.
I don't hate you at all, Arsalan, and while I can't speak for every forum user, I'd assume they'd say the same thing. I understand your argument and agree with parts of it, even if for the most part our opinions are different.

I do believe my initial reactions to your comments were a bit harsh, and I apologize for that. I just wanted to give my perspective.

As Marlon said, don't give up on this forum, and don't give up your music tastes.
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