1960s Songs Poll: Discussion

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How should the years be distributed in the final round of the 1960s poll?

Poll ended at Sun Oct 17, 2021 8:10 am

Even distribution
4
50%
Weighted distribution
4
50%
 
Total votes: 8

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Schüttelbirne
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1960s Songs Poll: Discussion

Post by Schüttelbirne »

In the thread for the 1967 poll, someone was asking for a longer list of songs. I wouldn't mind doing that, but I thought I'd ask everyone how they felt about it.

We could simply take the Top 15 of every year (like in the films poll), which would result in 150 songs, but we could also do the Top 20 which would result in 200 songs (or more, you get the idea).

About the wildcards: The purpose of the wildcards is to make sure that songs that receive votes in two different years still have a chance to make it, but that hasn't really been relevant in this poll. So we could simply scratch them (right?).

Additionally, we could do the thing we do in the film polls and have people nominate an extra song, which would give the list a more personal touch, but also make it less 'objective'.
So, what do you think of these ideas? I'm willing to do more songs, but only if most people agree.

A short note: This only refers to the songs poll, the albums poll is Holden's domain.

______________________________________________

I added a poll. If you want every year to have the same amount of songs in the final round, vote "Even distribution". If you prefer a weighted system like andyd1010 proposed down below, vote "Weighted distribution".
Last edited by Schüttelbirne on Sun Oct 10, 2021 8:10 am, edited 1 time in total.
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andyd1010
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Re: 1960s Songs Poll: Discussion

Post by andyd1010 »

The more the merrier!

I thought the wild cards were also to help the years that are generally considered better get more songs, right?
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Re: 1960s Songs Poll: Discussion

Post by jamieW »

I agree with Jackson (from the other thread) and andyd1010. (As long as you're okay with the extra work.) I also love the "personal nomination" of an extra song idea. I'd thought of that once before, but I can't remember if I actually suggested it or if it was just a thought inside my cluttered brain...
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Re: 1960s Songs Poll: Discussion

Post by Schüttelbirne »

andyd1010 wrote: Sat Oct 02, 2021 2:47 pm I thought the wild cards were also to help the years that are generally considered better get more songs, right?
If that was the thought behind the introduction of the wildcards, it doesn't work (at least not for the '60s poll).
The current distribution of the Top 50 wildcards from the years:

1960: 7
1961: 5
1962: 6
1963: 9
1964: 8
1965: 7
1966: 2
1967: 5

1964 is incredibly weak, but it has more entries than 1967 which is probably considered the best of these years.
It makes sense: A good year -> more good songs -> voters distribute their votes more broadly -> fewer songs receive a big percentage of the votes -> fewer wildcards for that year
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Re: 1960s Songs Poll: Discussion

Post by Jackson »

The 60s present a challenge for the usual format of our decade polls because probably like 95% (if not 100%) of the participants would agree that the back half of the decade is much stronger than the first half. The same split doesn't really exist in any other decade. The wild card system is sort of meant to address this, but like Schuttelbirne said it's not working in theory. Another way is just to greatly increase the number of songs (say to 200 or even 300 like in the 80s poll), and then the favorites from the later years will naturally rise to the top. It would just seem weird to have a final round that does not include (to take 1967 for an example) any of Ode to Billie Joe, Purple Haze, Nights in White Satin, Somebody to Love, etc.
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Re: 1960s Songs Poll: Discussion

Post by Schüttelbirne »

I could take the Top 25 from every year (=250), adding extra songs from people who want to nominate one extra song and fill the rest to 300 up with wildcards.
Would this be acceptable to everybody? I would really like to hear some more voices on this issue.
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andyd1010
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Re: 1960s Songs Poll: Discussion

Post by andyd1010 »

That would work for me. Holden, didn't you use AM's formula to create a ranked list of years? We could use those numbers to proportionally distribute songs by year. Otherwise I'm fine with 25 each.
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Re: 1960s Songs Poll: Discussion

Post by Holden »

andyd1010 wrote: Wed Oct 06, 2021 6:44 pm That would work for me. Holden, didn't you use AM's formula to create a ranked list of years? We could use those numbers to proportionally distribute songs by year. Otherwise I'm fine with 25 each.
I have done that! That'd certainly be interesting.
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Re: 1960s Songs Poll: Discussion

Post by andyd1010 »

Holden wrote: Wed Oct 06, 2021 7:41 pm
andyd1010 wrote: Wed Oct 06, 2021 6:44 pm That would work for me. Holden, didn't you use AM's formula to create a ranked list of years? We could use those numbers to proportionally distribute songs by year. Otherwise I'm fine with 25 each.
I have done that! That'd certainly be interesting.
Do you still have the numbers handy?
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Re: 1960s Songs Poll: Discussion

Post by DaveC »

In general, I prefer the list to be ranked to not be too long. However, I agree that the 60s is a special case, so I think that the suggestions made so far are all reasonable, although I foresee lots of songs from the early 60s ranked at the bottom of a list of 300. Maybe andy1010's suggestion would prevent this, so it is worth considering.
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Re: 1960s Songs Poll: Discussion

Post by Holden »

Heres the data:

Here is the percentage of total albums/songs each year would get if we went relative to their AM Score

Albums
1960 | 03.5%
1961 | 03.8%
1962 | 03.0%
1963 | 04.7%
1964 | 04.5%
1965 | 10.9%
1966 | 12.1%
1967 | 17.8%
1968 | 18.5%
1969 | 21.2%

Songs
1960 | 03.5%
1961 | 04.7%
1962 | 04.1%
1963 | 07.1%
1964 | 09.4%
1965 | 14.0%
1966 | 13.8%
1967 | 16.3%
1968 | 13.1%
1969 | 13.9%
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Re: 1960s Songs Poll: Discussion

Post by Holden »

I'd be willing to bump the 1960s up to 200, but that's as high as I would go. And I'd probably want to just use the wild card system as we have it.
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Re: 1960s Songs Poll: Discussion

Post by andyd1010 »

So for 250 songs, those proportions come out like this:

1960 | 8.75
1961 | 11.75
1962 | 10.25
1963 | 17.75
1964 | 23.5
1965 | 35
1966 | 34.5
1967 | 40.75
1968 | 32.75
1969 | 34.75

When you round them all, it comes to 252, so I'd propose rounding the .5s down. Then to get 1960 up to 10, I'd round down 1967 to 40. Let me know what you all think of this:

1960 | 10
1961 | 12
1962 | 10
1963 | 18
1964 | 23
1965 | 35
1966 | 34
1967 | 40
1968 | 33
1969 | 35
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Re: 1960s Songs Poll: Discussion

Post by Schüttelbirne »

I'm not sure if this is a good idea.

1. Holden's data is based on the AM list, so the distribution would simply reflect what is acclaimed and more critically acclaimed years get more songs. But our list is not identical to the AM list and it shouldn't be. It should reflect our tastes.

2. So theoretically, we would have to have a ranking of years based on our AT albums and songs to actually distinguish which years are well-liked by us and should receive more entries.

3. Having most songs from the early '60s in the bottom half is not really an excuse to just exclude most of them. We might as well exclude any jazz or metal tracks in polls where songs should be ranked because they will always end up behind pop and rock songs.

4. I know that the intention behind this is more inclusion of tracks from 1965-69 than exclusion of tracks 1960-64 but they both are dependent on each other. We might as well not have had separate polls for the early years if the first three years together will receive less entries than any of the last five years of the decade on its own.

5. Taking more tracks for the later years would really just give us mostly more of the same (The Beatles, The Rolling Stones, The Beach Boys, Bob Dylan, Jimi Hendrix, The Doors, ...), while the tracks for the early years seem to have less 'repeat offenders'.

6. The question is ultimately: Do we want to present the '60s as they were in their status as an uneven decade where music changed completely in a matter of ten years or do we want to perpetuate the (rather lazy tbh) stereotype that music really only started when the Beatles arrived.

I won't be a dictator here. If the majority wants to, I can definitely do the proposed system. I personally would prefer a more evenly distributed line-up, though.


Also, can anybody comment on the bonus nominations? Good idea or not? Thanks in advance...
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Re: 1960s Songs Poll: Discussion

Post by Holden »

Personally, I think that doing the way andyd1010 suggested is not a good way of doing it. I think it severely undervalued the first half of the decade.
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Re: 1960s Songs Poll: Discussion

Post by andyd1010 »

All fair criticisms. What if we split the difference between Holden's numbers and just doing 25 each? If you average the two, it would come out like this:

1960 | 17
1961 | 18
1962 | 18
1963 | 21
1964 | 24
1965 | 30
1966 | 30
1967 | 33
1968 | 29
1969 | 30
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Re: 1960s Songs Poll: Discussion

Post by andyd1010 »

I looked at the 2018 AMF all-time songs poll results, and none of the years from the first half of the 1960s would be shortchanged based on our collective tastes and what I proposed above... 1962 actually gets a massive boost, since we incredibly only had 2 songs from that year in the top 1000!
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Re: 1960s Songs Poll: Discussion

Post by Schüttelbirne »

I added a poll. If you want every year to have the same amount of songs in the final round, vote "Even distribution". If you prefer a weighted system like andyd1010 proposed above, vote "Weighted distribution".

I plan to get to 200 songs with the method decided upon in the poll.
Then users who voted in at least one of the 1960s polls will have the opportunity to nominate a bonus song. The rest up to 250 will be filled up with wildcards.
Let me know if this is acceptable.
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Re: 1960s Songs Poll: Discussion

Post by Schüttelbirne »

The poll is a tie. That means I will keep the traditional method with even distribution.
I will post a list with the songs that already qualified for the finale later today.
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Re: 1960s Songs Poll: Discussion

Post by Schüttelbirne »

As promised, here is the list of the finalists (up to 1967):

The Animals | The House of the Rising Sun
Joan Baez | Silver Dagger
John Barry Seven | James Bond Theme
The Beach Boys | Don‘t Worry Baby
The Beach Boys | God Only Knows
The Beach Boys | Good Vibrations
The Beach Boys | I Get Around
The Beach Boys | Surfin‘ U.S.A.
The Beach Boys | Wouldn‘t It Be Nice
The Beatles | All My Loving
The Beatles | Can‘t Buy Me Love
The Beatles | A Day in the Life
The Beatles | Eleanor Rigby
The Beatles | A Hard Day‘s Night
The Beatles | Help!
The Beatles | I Am the Walrus
The Beatles | I Saw Her Standing There
The Beatles | I Want to Hold Your Hand
The Beatles | In My Life
The Beatles | Love Me Do
The Beatles | Norwegian Wood (This Bird Has Flown)
The Beatles | Penny Lane
The Beatles | She Loves You
The Beatles | Strawberry Fields Forever
The Beatles | Ticket to Ride
The Beatles | Tomorrow Never Knows
The Beatles | Twist and Shout
The Beatles | Yesterday
Bob & Earl | Harlem Shuffle
Booker T. & The M.G.‘s | Green Onions
Jacques Brel | Amsterdam
James Brown | It‘s a Man‘s Man‘s Man‘s Man‘s World
Buffalo Springfield | For What It‘s Worth
The Byrds | Eight Miles High
Johnny Cash | Ring of Fire
Ray Charles | Georgia on My Mind
Ray Charles | Hit the Road Jack
Ray Charles | I Can‘t Stop Loving You
Chubby Checker | The Twist
Patsy Cline | Crazy
Patsy Cline | I Fall to Pieces
Patsy Cline | She‘s Got You
Leonard Cohen | Suzanne
John Coltrane | Giant Steps
John Coltrane | A Love Supreme, Part I: Acknowledgement
John Coltrane | My Favorite Things
The Contours | Do You Love Me
Sam Cooke | Bring It On Home to Me
Sam Cooke | A Change Is Gonna Come
Sam Cooke | Cupid
Sam Cooke | Twistin‘ the Night Away
Sam Cooke | (What a) Wonderful World
The Crystals | Da Doo Ron Ron
The Crystals | He‘s a Rebel
The Crystals | Then He Kissed Me
Dick Dale & The Deltones | Miserlou
Blind Gary Davis | Death Don‘t Have No Mercy
Miles Davis | Concierto de Aranjuez
Skeeter Davis | The End of the World
Dion & The Belmonts | Runaround Sue
Dion & The Belmonts | The Wanderer
The Doors | Break On Through (To the Other Side)
The Doors | Light My Fire
The Drifters | Save the Last Dance for Me
The Drifters | Up on the Roof
Bob Dylan | Ballad of a Thin Man
Bob Dylan | Blowin‘ in the Wind
Bob Dylan | Desolation Row
Bob Dylan | Don‘t Think Twice, It‘s Alright
Bob Dylan | Girl from the North Country
Bob Dylan | A Hard Rain‘s A-Gonna Fall
Bob Dylan | Like a Rolling Stone
Bob Dylan | Masters of War
Bob Dylan | Positively 4th Street
Bob Dylan | Subterranean Homsick Blues
Bob Dylan | The Times They Are A-Changin‘
Bob Dylan | Visions of Johanna
The Everly Brothers | Cathy‘s Clown
Four Tops | Reach Out I‘ll Be There
Aretha Franklin | Respect
Bobbie Gentry | Ode to Billie Joe
Stan Getz & Joao Gilberto ft. Astrud Gilberto | The Girl from Ipanema
Herbie Hancock | Watermelon Man
Francoise Hardy | Tous les garcons et les filles
The Jimi Hendrix Experience | Hey Joe
The Jimi Hendrix Experience | Little Wing
John Lee Hooker | Boom Boom
Howlin‘ Wolf | Spoonful
Etta James | At Last!
Etta James | I Just Want to Make Love to You
Jefferson Airplane | White Rabbit
Johnny Kidd & The Pirates | Shakin‘ All Over
Ben E. King | Stand by Me
The Kingsmen | Louie Louie
The Kinks | All Day and All of the Night
The Kinks | Waterloo Sunset
The Kinks | You Really Got Me
Ketty Lester | Love Letters
Little Eva | The Loco-Motion
Love | Alone Again Or
The Mamas and the Papas | California Dreamin‘
Henry Mancini & Audrey Hepburn | Moon River
The Marcels | Blue Moon
Martha & The Vandellas | Dancing in the Street
Martha & The Vandellas | Heat Wave
Martha & The Vandellas | Nowhere to Run
The Marvelettes | Please Mr. Postman
Mingus | Modes D/E/F
The Miracles | You‘ve Really Got a Hold on Me
The Monkees | I‘m a Believer
Ennio Morricone | The Ecstasy of Gold
Van Morrison | Brown Eyed Girl
Oliver Nelson | Stolen Moments
Roy Orbison | Crying
Roy Orbison | In Dreams
Roy Orbison | Oh, Pretty Woman
Roy Orbison | Only the Lonely (Know How I Feel)
Roy Orbison | Running Scared
Krzysztof Penderecki | Threnody to the Victims of Hiroshima
Édith Piaf | Non, je ne regrette rien
Elvis Presley | Are You Lonesome Tonight?
Elvis Presley | Can‘t Help Falling in Love
Elvis Presley | It‘s Now or Never
Elvis Presley | (Marie‘s the Name) His Latest Flame
Procol Harum | A Whiter Shade of Pale
Otis Redding | These Arms of Mine
Otis Redding | Try a Little Tenderness
The Righteous Brothers | Unchained Melody
The Righteous Brothers | You‘ve Lost That Lovin‘ Feelin‘
Smokey Robinson & The Miracles | The Tracks of My Tears
The Rolling Stones | (I Can‘t Get No) Satisfaction
The Rolling Stones | Paint It, Black
The Rolling Stones | Under My Thumb
The Ronettes | Be My Baby
The Shadows | Apache
Del Shannon | Runaway
The Shirelles | Will You Love Me Tomorrow
Simon & Garfunkel | The Sound of Silence
Nina Simone | Feeling Good
Nina Simone | Mississippi Goddam
Nina Simone | Sinnerman
The Supremes | Where Did Our Love Go
The Supremes | You Can‘t Hurry Love
The Temptations | My Girl
Them | Gloria
The Tokens | The Lion Sleeps Tonight
The Tornados | Telstar
Ike & Tina Turner | River Deep – Mountain High
Chavela Vargas | La Llorona
The Velvet Underground | All Tomorrow‘s Parties
The Velvet Underground | Heroin
The Velvet Underground | I‘m Waiting for the Man
The Velvet Underground | Sunday Morning
The Velvet Underground | Venus in Furs
The Ventures | Walk Don‘t Run
Dionne Warwick | Walk On By
The Who | I Can See for Miles
The Who | My Generation
Jackie Wilson | (Your Love Keeps Lifting Me) Higher and Higher
The Zombies | She‘s Not There

There will be 40 more songs from 1968 and 1969 in the finale.
I will start the bonus round in about a month.
The rest up to 250 will be filled up with the wildcards (depending on how many bonus nominations we get):

Bernard Herrmann | Psycho: Prelude | 1960 | 5,454545
The Moody Blues | Nights in White Satin | 1967 | 5,44117
Jefferson Airplane | Somebody to Love | 1967 | 5,38235
Ben E. King | Spanish Harlem | 1960 | 5,363636
Wilson Pickett | In the Midnight Hour | 1965 | 5,30555
The Beatles | Eight Days a Week | 1964 | 5,27586
The Jimi Hendrix Experience | Purple Haze | 1967 | 5,23529
The Beatles | I Feel Fine | 1964 | 5,20689
Love | You Set the Scene | 1967 | 5,17647
Bob Dylan | It‘s Alright, Ma (I‘m Only Bleeding) | 1965 | 5,16666
Marvin Gaye & Tammi Terrell | Ain‘t No Mountain High Enough | 1967 | 5,11764
Cream | Sunshine of Your Love | 1967 | 5,05882
Maurice Williams & The Zodiacs | Stay | 1960 | 5
The Ronettes | Baby, I Love You | 1963 | 4,937
Brenda Lee | I‘m Sorry | 1960 | 4,848484
Sam Cooke | Chain Gang | 1960 | 4,757575
The Zombies | Care of Cell 44 | 1967 | 4,73529
Jacques Brel | Le plat pays | 1962 | 4,73333
Jorge Ben | Mas que nada | 1963 | 4,59375
Max Roach | Triptych | 1961 | 4,545454
James Brown | Papa‘s Got a Brand New Bag | 1965 | 4,52777
Louis Armstrong | What a Wonderful World | 1967 | 4,41176
Bob Dylan | Just Like a Woman | 1966 | 4,32142
Darlene Love | Christmas (Baby Please Come Home) | 1963 | 4,21875
Dionne Warwick | Don‘t Make Me Over | 1962 | 4,2
Leonard Cohen | So Long, Marianne | 1967 | 4,17647
The Left Banke | Walk Away Renee | 1966 | 4,14285
The Kinks | Sunny Afternoon | 1966 | 4,14285
The Impressions | It‘s All Right | 1963 | 4,125
John Coltrane | Olé | 1961 | 4,060606
Ray Charles | You Don‘t Know Me | 1962 | 4,03333
Nico | These Days | 1967 | 4,02941
Henry Mancini | The Pink Panther Theme | 1963 | 4
Percy Sledge | When a Man Loves a Woman | 1966 | 4
Aretha Franklin | (You Make Me Feel Like) A Natural Woman | 1967 | 4
Smokey Robinson & The Miracles | The Tracks of My Tears | 1967 | 4
The Beatles | No Reply | 1964 | 3,96551
James Brown | I Got You (I Feel Good) | 1965 | 3,97222
Otis Redding | I‘ve Been Loving You Too Long (To Stop Now) | 1965 | 3,97222
The Lovin‘ Spoonful | Summer in the City | 1966 | 3,85714
The Exciters | Tell Him | 1962 | 3,83333
The Byrds | Mr. Tambourine Man | 1965 | 3,83333
The Chiffons | One Fine Day | 1963 | 3,78125
Bob Dylan | Mr. Tambourine Man | 1965 | 3,72222
The Who | The Kids Are Alright | 1965 | 3,694444
The Beatles | For No One | 1966 | 3,67857
LaVern Baker | Saved | 1961 | 3,66666
Elvis Presley | Little Sister | 1961 | 3,66666
Francoise Hardy | Le temps de l‘amour | 1962 | 3,6666
Dusty Springfield | I Only Want to Be with You | 1963 | 3,65625
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