Predictions: Rolling Stone Top 500 Songs update 2021

Hymie
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Re: Predictions: Rolling Stone Top 500 Songs update 2021

Post by Hymie »

Jackson wrote: Fri Jun 25, 2021 3:06 pm For example Journey's Don't Stop Believin' only peaked at #9 on the Billboard charts at the time of its release, but has gone on to have an incredible lasting popularity and is often cited as the best-selling digital song of all time.
This is why I use "initial popularity" AND "lasting popularity" when I put together lists for Digital Dream Door.
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Re: Predictions: Rolling Stone Top 500 Songs update 2021

Post by Nick »

So to sum up my thoughts:

1. Popularity is objective.

2. Unlike other objective qualities, popularity is impossible to measure with exactitude.

3. Because of point #2, two people can have a good faith disagreement about whether one band is more popular than the other.
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Re: Predictions: Rolling Stone Top 500 Songs update 2021

Post by jdizzle83 »

I guess I think objectivity in this sense is a boring way to decide the “best” albums ever, and actually working through what moves people and touches their lives, is much more interesting. Without that type of critical assessment where there can be differences of opinion this site doesn’t really exist. Much more interesting that Rolling Stone can grab 300 people to survey and we see those results and then Pitchfork or wherever can grab other folks and we might get some similar yet also different results, and in that, you can make discoveries. At some point, what lands in multiple lists, as we see in the aggregate one on this site, can become a sort of “collective subjectivity” that assesses the actual quality and enjoyment people get out of the music.

Anyway, again, not changing anyone’s minds here. Some folks find one type of list more interesting than others and that’s that!

Again, I think what makes this RS list significant is that it will kind of THE list for a lot of folks, and it’s a much wider ranging poll than most (sort of reminds me of the sight and sound film polls). And I think it’s cool to think about what shows up and seems significant to folks now. Again, thinking of that 13 year old who stumbles upon this and has their mind blown. I think it’s great it just won’t be “here are the best selling albums of all time” but will be more idiosyncratic than that while also having some of the usual suspects.
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Re: Predictions: Rolling Stone Top 500 Songs update 2021

Post by Henry »

Nick wrote: Fri Jun 25, 2021 3:52 pm So to sum up my thoughts:

1. Popularity is objective.

2. Unlike other objective qualities, popularity is impossible to measure with exactitude.

3. Because of point #2, two people can have a good faith disagreement about whether one band is more popular than the other.
Please note the difference between objectivity and quantifiability.

Popularity is contextual as you have noted in your second point above, therefore no measure of popularity is objective in the overall understanding of an artist's popularity. The various measures of popularity need to be weighed in a manner that makes sense mathematically and in terms of the development of a repeatable and insightful analytical framework to approach an objective truth.
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Re: Predictions: Rolling Stone Top 500 Songs update 2021

Post by Nick »

Henry wrote: Fri Jun 25, 2021 5:05 pm
Nick wrote: Fri Jun 25, 2021 3:52 pm So to sum up my thoughts:

1. Popularity is objective.

2. Unlike other objective qualities, popularity is impossible to measure with exactitude.

3. Because of point #2, two people can have a good faith disagreement about whether one band is more popular than the other.
Please note the difference between objectivity and quantifiability.
I'd say there is no real difference. If something is quantifiable, then it is objective. E.g. there are objectively 15 rocks in this pile of rocks, I am objectively 5'-11" tall, my dog objectively weighs 20 pounds, etc.

The issue I see here is that there are varying degrees to how quantifiable something is. Some things are easy to quantify. All you need to do to figure out how much my dog weighs is place him on a scale. But some things are very hard to quantify, if not downright impossible. As I type this there is an objective number of people, worldwide, who are listening to The Beatles. But there is no practical way to determine what that number is. So the "number of people listening to The Beatles right this very second" is objective, and it is theoretically quantifiable, but it is not quantifiable in any practical sense.

In the same way popularity is objective, and theoretically quantifiable, but it is not practically quantifiable. We can use rough approximations of popularity (peak chart positions, album sales, concert ticket sales, etc.) to get us close to that figure, but we will never be able to arrive at the figure itself, simply due to the practical limitations imposed upon us.

But just because that figure is out of reach for us does not mean that the figure doesn't exist.
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Re: Predictions: Rolling Stone Top 500 Songs update 2021

Post by Schüttelbirne »

I wanted to write a short post, and then after forty minutes it had turned into the bible. I'm indulging in some digressions but I hope I made clear how these issues relate to one another.
My train of thought may also have some holes in it, but I am too lazy to save this and revise it tomorrow, so if somebody finds a place where I contradict myself, don't hesitate to point it out. It is rather stream-of-consciousness. (Also, a warning: I'm really bringing out the big guns)

1. We all know that the results of the poll will be adjusted to make sure somebody unimpeachable will make number 1, similarly to Marvin Gaye's triumph last year. People may say that they don't really like What's Going On, but Rolling Stone will have to make sure they don't reap a shitstorm, because they really have to think about their future.

2. Rolling Stone is a magazine that wants to survive in a capitalist economy. To do that, they need to acquire new readers, because the Old Guard of rock fans will die someday, and then the magazine would be doomed. I'll just assume they want to continue to exist (because most magazines do, especially major ones like RS) and to do that they need to appeal to younger readers who may stumble upon their list and be convinced to stay. This is the reason why a lot of 2010s songs will make the list.

3. At the same time, the group which I called the Old Guard still wants to be satisfied, and they don't want to lose those readers, so they will continue to give spots to songs these people like.

4. All the talk about popularity of a song or artist leads nowhere in this case, because nobody cares about that. It's a very calculated move to acquire new readers and solidify old readers which means reproducing the old canon while including successful songs (which does not equal popular, btw) from the last few years.

5. The list will only include so-called 'popular music', excluding classical music and jazz (unless they include a token "So What") because
a) these genres are not well-liked among the target audience
b) they are not seen as comparable because the false dichotomy of high and low culture is still engraved in people's heads.

6. The list will only include songs in the English language with a few Spanish language songs thrown in (exclusively from Latin America), because these are the songs the target audience has a chance to know.

7. This means that the list will exclude a large portion of the world. That is not really an issue, because nobody expects them to be experts in Mongolian music and the access to a lot of artists is rather difficult in the Western world. It's important however, that they will not reflect upon this. They will not say: "We only asked people with a Western socialisation to list their favorite songs and are aware that there's a lot of other great music in the rest of the world too."

8. Popularity is not a clearly defined concept. Ask ten people what popularity means and you get ten different answers that are all similar, yet different enough to make a definition extremely difficult. So a definition of popularity would have to be very loose and "number of people who approve(d) of an artist" is too specific and too targeted towards providing a means of measurement. "Being approved or liked by a lot of people" is already enough for a definition and I feel it is more accurate.

9. However, this definition could only be used to measure some sort of 'objective' popularity if it is expanded (I refrain from repeating the millennia-long debate whether objectivity is even possible, because nobody here will win this). It excludes factors like globalization and technology. Korean bands can now be heard all over the world which was not possible thirty years ago (at least not in this magnitude). It is unfair to artists from the periphery who may have been far more popular in their region than The Beatles were in the Western world to be compared to a band that was explicitly targeted to appeal to a lot of people (to make the label a lot of many). It is also unfair, to compare artists from a time or place (!) without the means of recording to a modern society where anybody can record a song on their smartphone.

10. Additionally, a canon tends to reproduce itself. The Beatles at the top of the canon will stay near the top as long as any of us is alive (unless some major catastrophe kicks society down to a pre-modern state, but let's not be pessimistic). This is not because they are 'objectively' more popular or 'better', but rather because their status of canonization in the Western world has grown to such a degree that people are unable to escape from an early age. Of course there will always be people who dislike them, but most will happen upon them when reading up on music.

11. We need to stop assuming, music is a universal language we all understand. I'm sorry, Stevie Wonder, but that is just not true. Scientific research with indigenous people from places that were rather sheltered from Western influence has shown that what we perceive to be happy music (because of the Major key), does not sound happy to everybody. It only sounds happy to us because of the musical socialization we go through and the music we encounter upon the way. The Beatles (sorry I'm focussing so much on them, but it's their own fault) are part of this socialization and through the influence they had on other artists that came after them, they are part of an individual's musical socialization process to this day.

12. This is also a reason why Western audiences have a hard time getting into other musical styles. They're not accustomed to them, which just makes it sound weird. Now you may think: "But I listen to a lot of African music and I like it", and that isn't wrong of course, but it is almost impossible to hear a recorded piece of music that has not been influenced and shaped by Western musical traditions. The Western way of transcribing music in musical notations is unable to fully grasp other culture's musical heritage.

13. This all boils down to: An objective measurement of popularity may be possible (I'm not the person to decide that), but it would have to be adjusted by all the factors addressed in the post above and still it would result in a Western artist/song at the top. I am not blaming anyone for this, because colonization is a thing that has influenced every single person on this world their entire life and I am also not judging it, because that would be a futile effort. (I also don't mean this as an attack to anyone who thinks objective measurements are possible, btw). I just think we need to be aware, that no list will ever be able to give a truly un-biased look at music because this objective measurement of popularity has not been invented yet.

14. So what I would like for RS to do is address that in their announcement at the top of the list. Just a few short sentences to make clear that the list is not objective (because it can't be) but rather is to be used as a way for people to find new music. That would mean including lots of underdogs and excluding a lot of the usual suspects, but it would also be more rewarding. I am not sure if there is any way I will be satisfied with the list, but I would certainly celebrate them if they have the guts to go against their capital interest.
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Re: Predictions: Rolling Stone Top 500 Songs update 2021

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Schüttelbirne wrote: Fri Jun 25, 2021 5:38 pm I wanted to write a short post, and then after forty minutes it had turned into the bible.
You brought us several points that should tell us not to take this upcoming RS list very seriously. If they are gonna screw with the actual vote results to try and pacify certain segments of their customers then it's pretty much worthless as any kind of measurement of anything.
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Re: Predictions: Rolling Stone Top 500 Songs update 2021

Post by jdizzle83 »

Hymie wrote: Fri Jun 25, 2021 7:44 pm
Schüttelbirne wrote: Fri Jun 25, 2021 5:38 pm I wanted to write a short post, and then after forty minutes it had turned into the bible.
You brought us several points that should tell us not to take this upcoming RS list very seriously. If they are gonna screw with the actual vote results to try and pacify certain segments of their customers then it's pretty much worthless as any kind of measurement of anything.
Cool. Then why be on this thread to make predictions? It’s kind of like spoiling the good time of everyone else who does care.
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Re: Predictions: Rolling Stone Top 500 Songs update 2021

Post by Hymie »

jdizzle83 wrote: Fri Jun 25, 2021 7:49 pm
Hymie wrote: Fri Jun 25, 2021 7:44 pm
Schüttelbirne wrote: Fri Jun 25, 2021 5:38 pm I wanted to write a short post, and then after forty minutes it had turned into the bible.
You brought us several points that should tell us not to take this upcoming RS list very seriously. If they are gonna screw with the actual vote results to try and pacify certain segments of their customers then it's pretty much worthless as any kind of measurement of anything.
Cool. Then why be on this thread to make predictions? It’s kind of like spoiling the good time of everyone else who does care.
I'm not convinced that jdizzle is correct about them screwing with the voting results.
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Re: Predictions: Rolling Stone Top 500 Songs update 2021

Post by jdizzle83 »

Hymie wrote: Fri Jun 25, 2021 10:44 pm
jdizzle83 wrote: Fri Jun 25, 2021 7:49 pm
Hymie wrote: Fri Jun 25, 2021 7:44 pm

You brought us several points that should tell us not to take this upcoming RS list very seriously. If they are gonna screw with the actual vote results to try and pacify certain segments of their customers then it's pretty much worthless as any kind of measurement of anything.
Cool. Then why be on this thread to make predictions? It’s kind of like spoiling the good time of everyone else who does care.
I'm not convinced that jdizzle is correct about them screwing with the voting results.
I…didn’t say that? I think that’s someone else.
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Re: Predictions: Rolling Stone Top 500 Songs update 2021

Post by Hymie »

jdizzle83 wrote: Fri Jun 25, 2021 10:46 pm
Hymie wrote: Fri Jun 25, 2021 10:44 pm
jdizzle83 wrote: Fri Jun 25, 2021 7:49 pm

Cool. Then why be on this thread to make predictions? It’s kind of like spoiling the good time of everyone else who does care.
I'm not convinced that jdizzle is correct about them screwing with the voting results.
I…didn’t say that? I think that’s someone else.
My mistake, it was Schüttelbirne.
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Re: Predictions: Rolling Stone Top 500 Songs update 2021

Post by Henry »

Nick wrote: Fri Jun 25, 2021 5:21 pm As I type this there is an objective number of people, worldwide, who are listening to The Beatles. But there is no practical way to determine what that number is. So the "number of people listening to The Beatles right this very second" is objective, and it is theoretically quantifiable, but it is not quantifiable in any practical sense.

In the same way popularity is objective, and theoretically quantifiable, but it is not practically quantifiable. We can use rough approximations of popularity (peak chart positions, album sales, concert ticket sales, etc.) to get us close to that figure, but we will never be able to arrive at the figure itself, simply due to the practical limitations imposed upon us.

But just because that figure is out of reach for us does not mean that the figure doesn't exist.
Quantitative and objective are synonyms when discussing data, not truths or perspectives.

The inability to execute measurement does not render a numerical datapoint from being quantifiable, it means that we are presently unable to measure the corresponding data.

https://wikidiff.com/quantify/measurable
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Re: Predictions: Rolling Stone Top 500 Songs update 2021

Post by Henry »

Weight is clearly not objective - it depends on the gravitational force on the planet on which you exist.
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Re: Predictions: Rolling Stone Top 500 Songs update 2021

Post by Edre Depeche Head »

Hymie wrote: Sun Jun 13, 2021 11:14 pm
Nick wrote: Sun Jun 13, 2021 11:06 pm The new Rolling Stone top 500 albums list was filled with albums from the past 20 years, so it stands to reason that the new songs list will also be filled with songs from the past 20 years.
We'll see. Older people like me don't care much about albums, so I'm not surprised that the albums list had modern stuff. For people who started listening to music in the 50s and early 60s, very few of us cared at all about albums. It was a 45 world until the later 60s. For you young guys, a "45" is what we called those little records that you guys refer to as "singles."

Maybe enough of the older voters have died by now, so you guys could be right about what this list will be like.

When will the new Top 500 be published?
I know this is late but why are you coming off so aggressive? If you are young and like music, you know what a "45" is. Do you even realize that at least half of the user base is "millennial" and many of us are record collectors both new and old. Other than that, many of us also enjoy new music just as much as we enjoy older music. So please stop taking jabs at the young user base on this site. This is a very gatekeepy situation.
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Re: Predictions: Rolling Stone Top 500 Songs update 2021

Post by Hymie »

Edre Peraza wrote: Sat Jun 26, 2021 2:54 am I know this is late but why are you coming off so aggressive? If you are young and like music, you know what a "45" is. Do you even realize that at least half of the user base is "millennial" and many of us are record collectors both new and old. Other than that, many of us also enjoy new music just as much as we enjoy older music. So please stop taking jabs at the young user base on this site. This is a very gatekeepy situation.
Not jabs, just facts about most people's musical tastes are based on their age.

I don't get why most folks here are so against debate. To me that's the main purpose of a forum, to discuss ideas pro and con about different subjects. It seems to me that this is discouraged around here and that the only posts that are welcome are those who totally agree with what's being said. I've heard a lot of stuff about millennials not liking to be contradicted about anything, especially on college campuses these days. I guess it's true.
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Re: Predictions: Rolling Stone Top 500 Songs update 2021

Post by Henry »

Hymie wrote: Sat Jun 26, 2021 3:50 am
Edre Peraza wrote: Sat Jun 26, 2021 2:54 am I know this is late but why are you coming off so aggressive? If you are young and like music, you know what a "45" is. Do you even realize that at least half of the user base is "millennial" and many of us are record collectors both new and old. Other than that, many of us also enjoy new music just as much as we enjoy older music. So please stop taking jabs at the young user base on this site. This is a very gatekeepy situation.
Not jabs, just facts about most people's musical tastes are based on their age.

I don't get why most folks here are so against debate. To me that's the main purpose of a forum, to discuss ideas pro and con about different subjects. It seems to me that this is discouraged around here and that the only posts that are welcome are those who totally agree with what's being said. I've heard a lot of stuff about millennials not liking to be contradicted about anything, especially on college campuses these days. I guess it's true.
When you hear something, it does not thereby become fact.
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Re: Predictions: Rolling Stone Top 500 Songs update 2021

Post by FrankLotion »

Hymie wrote: Sat Jun 26, 2021 3:50 am
Edre Peraza wrote: Sat Jun 26, 2021 2:54 am I know this is late but why are you coming off so aggressive? If you are young and like music, you know what a "45" is. Do you even realize that at least half of the user base is "millennial" and many of us are record collectors both new and old. Other than that, many of us also enjoy new music just as much as we enjoy older music. So please stop taking jabs at the young user base on this site. This is a very gatekeepy situation.
Not jabs, just facts about most people's musical tastes are based on their age.

I don't get why most folks here are so against debate. To me that's the main purpose of a forum, to discuss ideas pro and con about different subjects. It seems to me that this is discouraged around here and that the only posts that are welcome are those who totally agree with what's being said. I've heard a lot of stuff about millennials not liking to be contradicted about anything, especially on college campuses these days. I guess it's true.
I don’t think anyone here dislikes debate. It’s just exhausting dealing with someone who spouts endlessly fallacious logic, as seen in this entire comment. It shouldn’t be a mystery why most people don’t even bother to engage.

Also you don’t need to look far in this forum to find people disagreeing with each other in a civil (mature) fashion, but I guess you’ll see what you want to see…
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Re: Predictions: Rolling Stone Top 500 Songs update 2021

Post by prosecutorgodot »

longevity > popularity
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Re: Predictions: Rolling Stone Top 500 Songs update 2021

Post by Hymie »

prosecutorgodot wrote: Sun Jun 27, 2021 2:57 am longevity > popularity
Longevity just means popular longer. Otherwise these lists should all have tons of real old songs.
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Re: Predictions: Rolling Stone Top 500 Songs update 2021

Post by Nassim »

Hymie wrote: Sun Jun 27, 2021 1:35 pm
prosecutorgodot wrote: Sun Jun 27, 2021 2:57 am longevity > popularity
Longevity just means popular longer. Otherwise these lists should all have tons of real old songs.
Since you seem to be genuinely wondering why some people here don't like debating with you, I can tell you this kind of answers don't help : don't play dumb and pretend you don't understand what people mean (unless you really don't and can only understand the stricter literal sense of words, in which case I'm sorry). Yes, obviously prosecutorgodot meant lasting popularity (or influence, or cultural significance) vs short term popularity.
To give an example from a period you are fond of, I guess you would agree C'mon Everybody or Jingle Bell Rock have had a way more lasting popularity i.e. longevity, than the song that was #1 on Billboard when they both peaked : The Chipmunk Song (Christmas Don't Be Late) and would seem to deserve a higher ranking on an all time list.

I would add the following advices :
- don't boil down a long post to the single line you are disagreeing with, if you show people when you agree with them, not just when you don't, they'll be more eager to discuss with you (obviously I'm not referencing that specific prosecutorgodot post which was 2 words long)
- stop bragging and talking about money, I don't think either of those attitudes are appealing to the people around here
- facts are facts, and you are pretty good at them, however opinions and subjective impressions are not facts, so don't treat everything you consider correct as an absolute truth
- don't be condescending, neither towards other people from the forum, or towards younger generations in general
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Re: Predictions: Rolling Stone Top 500 Songs update 2021

Post by Hymie »

Nassim wrote: Sun Jun 27, 2021 3:08 pm
Hymie wrote: Sun Jun 27, 2021 1:35 pm
prosecutorgodot wrote: Sun Jun 27, 2021 2:57 am longevity > popularity
Longevity just means popular longer. Otherwise these lists should all have tons of real old songs.
To give an example from a period you are fond of, I guess you would agree C'mon Everybody or Jingle Bell Rock have had a way more lasting popularity i.e. longevity, than the song that was #1 on Billboard when they both peaked : The Chipmunk Song (Christmas Don't Be Late) and would seem to deserve a higher ranking on an all time list.
I would disagree strongly with this statement. "The Chipmunk Song" was been much more enduringly popular than "C'mon Everybody" and even more popular than "Jingle Bell Rock." I'd much rather hold the publishing copyright to "The Chipmunk Song" than to "C'mon Everybody." It's not even close in my mind as to which song has generated more income for its writers and publishers.

https://www.hollywoodreporter.com/news/ ... c-1169762/

“The Chipmunk Song” Turns 60: Secrets of a Holiday Novelty Smash

Let is know if and when somebody writes an entire article about "C'mon Everybody."
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Re: Predictions: Rolling Stone Top 500 Songs update 2021

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With the release and popularity of the film Alvin and the Chipmunks in December 2007, "The Chipmunk Song" re-entered the Billboard Hot 100 at No. 70. At the same time, a remixed version of the song that appears on the Chipmunks' 2007 album (and soundtrack to the film) Alvin and the Chipmunks: Original Motion Picture Soundtrack, peaked at No. 66 and was credited as "The Chipmunk Song (Christmas Don't Be Late) (2007 Version)".

As of December 25, 2011, Nielsen SoundScan estimated total sales of two versions of the digital track by The Chipmunks at 867,000 downloads, placing it third on the list of all-time best-selling Christmas/holiday digital singles in SoundScan history (behind Mariah Carey's 1994 hit single "All I Want for Christmas Is You" and Trans-Siberian Orchestra's 1996 track "Christmas Eve/Sarajevo 12/24").

(More digital downloads than "Jingle Bell Rock" BY FAR)
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Re: Predictions: Rolling Stone Top 500 Songs update 2021

Post by Honorio »

Hey, Hymie, Nassim asked you not to do 4 things. And immediately you did it again !!
1) You boiled down a long post to the single line you are disagreeing with.
2) You talked again about money, income, etc.
3) You expressed your opinion as an absolute truth (even if seems that at least this time you bothered to check some facts about those songs).
4) You were again condescending.
What can we do, Hymie? You made the task of the moderators really really difficult. Many users are asking for a ban. And that's something we don't want to do...
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Re: Predictions: Rolling Stone Top 500 Songs update 2021

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Honorio wrote: Sun Jun 27, 2021 4:11 pm Hey, Hymie, Nassim asked you not to do 4 things. And immediately you did it again !!
He didn't ask, he suggested that if I did those things more people would be respond to me. I don't debate to make fiends, it's all about the facts.
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Re: Predictions: Rolling Stone Top 500 Songs update 2021

Post by Hymie »

Honorio wrote: Sun Jun 27, 2021 4:11 pm What can we do, Hymie? You made the task of the moderators really really difficult. Many users are asking for a ban. And that's something we don't want to do...
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Re: Predictions: Rolling Stone Top 500 Songs update 2021

Post by BleuPanda »

Hymie wrote: Sun Jun 27, 2021 4:26 pm
Honorio wrote: Sun Jun 27, 2021 4:11 pm Hey, Hymie, Nassim asked you not to do 4 things. And immediately you did it again !!
He didn't ask, he suggested that if I did those things more people would be respond to me. I don't debate to make fiends, it's all about the facts.
You don't debate at all. You just want people to say you're right, even when you're wrong. Your obsession with 'facts' is only because you lack critical comprehension of art, so you demand everyone else speak in meaningless numbers. No one wants to 'debate' with you because your goal is to make discussing art as boring and reductive as possible while also showing no respect for the craft or other people.

I don't understand why people let you derail threads like this. It's meaningless gibberish by a bad faith actor. It should be clear by now that Hymie is either a troll or the Uwe Boll of music analysis. Either way, it's not worth anyone's time, so just stop engaging.
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Re: Predictions: Rolling Stone Top 500 Songs update 2021

Post by Nassim »

Hymie wrote: Sun Jun 27, 2021 4:07 pm With the release and popularity of the film Alvin and the Chipmunks in December 2007, "The Chipmunk Song" re-entered the Billboard Hot 100 at No. 70. At the same time, a remixed version of the song that appears on the Chipmunks' 2007 album (and soundtrack to the film) Alvin and the Chipmunks: Original Motion Picture Soundtrack, peaked at No. 66 and was credited as "The Chipmunk Song (Christmas Don't Be Late) (2007 Version)".

As of December 25, 2011, Nielsen SoundScan estimated total sales of two versions of the digital track by The Chipmunks at 867,000 downloads, placing it third on the list of all-time best-selling Christmas/holiday digital singles in SoundScan history (behind Mariah Carey's 1994 hit single "All I Want for Christmas Is You" and Trans-Siberian Orchestra's 1996 track "Christmas Eve/Sarajevo 12/24").

(More digital downloads than "Jingle Bell Rock" BY FAR)
Digital download was a thing for a few years at most, streaming for Jingle Bell Rock is over 10 times higher than the Chipmunk Song, I think that's a better indication of popularity.
On top of that Jingle Bell Rock has been used in many films and tv shows, which must amount to a lot of money if that's your main criteria for a song popularity.
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Re: Predictions: Rolling Stone Top 500 Songs update 2021

Post by Hymie »

Nassim wrote: Sun Jun 27, 2021 5:05 pm
Hymie wrote: Sun Jun 27, 2021 4:07 pm With the release and popularity of the film Alvin and the Chipmunks in December 2007, "The Chipmunk Song" re-entered the Billboard Hot 100 at No. 70. At the same time, a remixed version of the song that appears on the Chipmunks' 2007 album (and soundtrack to the film) Alvin and the Chipmunks: Original Motion Picture Soundtrack, peaked at No. 66 and was credited as "The Chipmunk Song (Christmas Don't Be Late) (2007 Version)".

As of December 25, 2011, Nielsen SoundScan estimated total sales of two versions of the digital track by The Chipmunks at 867,000 downloads, placing it third on the list of all-time best-selling Christmas/holiday digital singles in SoundScan history (behind Mariah Carey's 1994 hit single "All I Want for Christmas Is You" and Trans-Siberian Orchestra's 1996 track "Christmas Eve/Sarajevo 12/24").

(More digital downloads than "Jingle Bell Rock" BY FAR)
Digital download was a thing for a few years at most, streaming for Jingle Bell Rock is over 10 times higher than the Chipmunk Song, I think that's a better indication of popularity.
On top of that Jingle Bell Rock has been used in many films and tv shows, which must amount to a lot of money if that's your main criteria for a song popularity.
"The Chipmunk Song" was back on the Billboard charts twice in the last 10 years, AND it's also been in dozens of movies. With "Jingle Bell Rock" there are several different popular versions. It's not only the Bobby Helms when it appears in movies. And nobody is using "C'mon Everybody" in movies. There are plenty of number one songs from the 50s you could have picked to make your point, but "The Chipmunk Song" is not one of them. How about "The Three Bells" by the Browns or "Patricia" by Perez Prado?
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Re: Predictions: Rolling Stone Top 500 Songs update 2021

Post by Hymie »

BleuPanda wrote: Sun Jun 27, 2021 4:42 pm
You don't debate at all. You just want people to say you're right, even when you're wrong. Your obsession with 'facts' is only because you lack critical comprehension of art, so you demand everyone else speak in meaningless numbers.
Numbers are never meaningless. What's meaningless is trying to write or talk about music. Remember this famous quote? "Writing about music is like dancing about architecture."
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Re: Predictions: Rolling Stone Top 500 Songs update 2021

Post by jdizzle83 »

Hymie wrote: Sun Jun 27, 2021 5:44 pm
BleuPanda wrote: Sun Jun 27, 2021 4:42 pm
You don't debate at all. You just want people to say you're right, even when you're wrong. Your obsession with 'facts' is only because you lack critical comprehension of art, so you demand everyone else speak in meaningless numbers.
Numbers are never meaningless. What's meaningless is trying to write or talk about music. Remember this famous quote? "Writing about music is like dancing about architecture."
Then WHY are you here writing and talking about music?
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Re: Predictions: Rolling Stone Top 500 Songs update 2021

Post by Hymie »

jdizzle83 wrote: Sun Jun 27, 2021 5:46 pm
Hymie wrote: Sun Jun 27, 2021 5:44 pm
BleuPanda wrote: Sun Jun 27, 2021 4:42 pm
You don't debate at all. You just want people to say you're right, even when you're wrong. Your obsession with 'facts' is only because you lack critical comprehension of art, so you demand everyone else speak in meaningless numbers.
Numbers are never meaningless. What's meaningless is trying to write or talk about music. Remember this famous quote? "Writing about music is like dancing about architecture."
Then WHY are you here writing and talking about music?
I'm not. I'm writing and talking about facts, chart numbers, sales, etc... I don't attempt to describe why I like a particular record, that's just a fruitless task.
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Re: Predictions: Rolling Stone Top 500 Songs update 2021

Post by Henrik »

Well, Hymie, then this is not the place for you. I created AM as an alternative to sales charts. If you only want to talk about sales and other facts, and to tell people who want to talk about music that everything they say is wrong, then please go somewhere else!!!!!
Everyone you meet fights a battle you know nothing about. Be kind. Always.
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Re: Predictions: Rolling Stone Top 500 Songs update 2021

Post by Henry »

Hymie wrote: Sun Jun 27, 2021 5:44 pm
BleuPanda wrote: Sun Jun 27, 2021 4:42 pm
You don't debate at all. You just want people to say you're right, even when you're wrong. Your obsession with 'facts' is only because you lack critical comprehension of art, so you demand everyone else speak in meaningless numbers.
Numbers are never meaningless. What's meaningless is trying to write or talk about music. Remember this famous quote? "Writing about music is like dancing about architecture."
Numbers can be meaningless when they are not directed to an intelligible question or issue.

My take is that the ability to articulate our affection for music is of great importance to just about everyone who participates in this forum. I suggest that you remember that the nile is a river in Africa, and stop posturing with nonsensical arguments that deny reality.

Good luck!
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Re: Predictions: Rolling Stone Top 500 Songs update 2021

Post by Gillingham »

Hymie wrote: Sun Jun 27, 2021 5:44 pm
BleuPanda wrote: Sun Jun 27, 2021 4:42 pm
You don't debate at all. You just want people to say you're right, even when you're wrong. Your obsession with 'facts' is only because you lack critical comprehension of art, so you demand everyone else speak in meaningless numbers.
Numbers are never meaningless. What's meaningless is trying to write or talk about music. Remember this famous quote? "Writing about music is like dancing about architecture."
67851.

There's a meaningless number for you. Numbers are all about context.

I've always thought that was a very uninteresting quote. Writing about music is then also like writing about architecture, or film, or painting, or whatever except for literature.
I like writing (and definitely reading) about all kinds of arts. If people don't, well, then don't.
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Re: Predictions: Rolling Stone Top 500 Songs update 2021

Post by Harold »

Hymie wrote: Sun Jun 27, 2021 4:26 pm I don't debate to make fiends
That's good, because this forum can only handle one fiend at a time and I think we've got that covered. :whistle:
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Re: Predictions: Rolling Stone Top 500 Songs update 2021

Post by FrankLotion »

Hymie wrote: Sun Jun 27, 2021 5:48 pm
jdizzle83 wrote: Sun Jun 27, 2021 5:46 pm
Hymie wrote: Sun Jun 27, 2021 5:44 pm

Numbers are never meaningless. What's meaningless is trying to write or talk about music. Remember this famous quote? "Writing about music is like dancing about architecture."
Then WHY are you here writing and talking about music?
I'm not. I'm writing and talking about facts, chart numbers, sales, etc... I don't attempt to describe why I like a particular record, that's just a fruitless task.
If you’d like I could pull up literally hundreds of your posts where you offer your subjective take on songs that have nothing to do with any of these factors, could jog your selective memory a bit.
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Re: Predictions: Rolling Stone Top 500 Songs update 2021

Post by FrankLotion »

BleuPanda wrote: Sun Jun 27, 2021 4:42 pm
Hymie wrote: Sun Jun 27, 2021 4:26 pm
Honorio wrote: Sun Jun 27, 2021 4:11 pm Hey, Hymie, Nassim asked you not to do 4 things. And immediately you did it again !!
He didn't ask, he suggested that if I did those things more people would be respond to me. I don't debate to make fiends, it's all about the facts.
You don't debate at all. You just want people to say you're right, even when you're wrong. Your obsession with 'facts' is only because you lack critical comprehension of art, so you demand everyone else speak in meaningless numbers. No one wants to 'debate' with you because your goal is to make discussing art as boring and reductive as possible while also showing no respect for the craft or other people.

I don't understand why people let you derail threads like this. It's meaningless gibberish by a bad faith actor. It should be clear by now that Hymie is either a troll or the Uwe Boll of music analysis. Either way, it's not worth anyone's time, so just stop engaging.
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Re: Predictions: Rolling Stone Top 500 Songs update 2021

Post by VanillaFire1000 »

Schüttelbirne wrote: Fri Jun 25, 2021 5:38 pm I wanted to write a short post, and then after forty minutes it had turned into the bible. I'm indulging in some digressions but I hope I made clear how these issues relate to one another.
A good post. There are so many things that shape our cultural connections to music which is just because of our English dominance. I wouldn't be surprised to see some K-pop make the chart, but not anywhere near the top. Still too niche and new. What would be more interesting is if something like "Plastic Love" made it there - a song that became known in the West almost entirely by Youtube algorithms 5 years ago, and helped inspire a whole new genre of music that has gone on to influence alot of new music now (future funk). Like, alot of music I listen to now is Japanese/Hong Kong city pop from the 80s. You're not gonna find alot of that on this new list.
When I first moved to Taiwan, I would notice these kinds of things - which things of my pop culture "ouvre" were popular here, and which things just were unknown - there was some overlap, but not much. This started to change around the early 2000s - globalization and the internet and all that. But most movies, tv shows from before then - very few would get through (some Disney, The Simpsons, Japanese videogames, of course). Some pop music got through - but it was almost like an alternate universe. Two of the most popular English language songs, songs you would find in every karaoke in the country when there are no other English songs, are "Top of the World" and "Take me Home, Country Roads". I believe for a time in the 70s/80s every kid in the country would learn them in school in English classes.

I also remember one time, I was at a New Years party with a bunch of old people (long story.) And of course, that means the karaoke machine is brought out. I went looking through their English language selection, and I found "Stay". Now I didn't know which song it really was - there are a bunch of songs called that. It turned out to be the Maurice Williams and the Zodiacs.
And when I starting singing, I had an old woman come up and say that she knew this song. Now, she didn't know "that" song. But the music had been taken and had Chinese lyrics put on it. It was a common thing in the 50s and 60s - take Rock and Roll, add Chinese lyrics to it.

Not everyone experiences music the same way. I like to listen to Taiwanese radio stations when I'm driving - songs that are in the Taiwanese language, not the more common Mandarin. There are alot of songs that will never, ever be known to people making lists like this, from every country. And I don't know how this will really change unless we start getting universal translators installed in our brains.
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Re: Predictions: Rolling Stone Top 500 Songs update 2021

Post by Nassim »

VanillaFire1000 wrote: Mon Jul 12, 2021 7:26 am And when I starting singing, I had an old woman come up and say that she knew this song. Now, she didn't know "that" song. But the music had been taken and had Chinese lyrics put on it. It was a common thing in the 50s and 60s - take Rock and Roll, add Chinese lyrics to it.
France did that a looooot in the 60s and through a big part of the 70s (some singers kept doing it in the 80s, but to much less success... though some of the resulting songs are hilariously terrible).
Del Shannon's Runaway is pretty much unknown in France, but play it and people will first say "hey, it's Dave's Vanina" and then be gobsmacked that there's a guitar solo, Dave instead decided to sing the solo.
"Reach Out (I'll Be There)" is know as the pretty terrible "J'attendrai", "Uptight" as "Les Coups" with some pretty dumb lyrics and "My Way" is known as "Comme d'habitude" except for once it's the French version that is the original !
Not too sure when that stopped being a thing in the pop chart, but the disco hits didn't need translation, might have been a pivotal point.
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Re: Predictions: Rolling Stone Top 500 Songs update 2021

Post by Donchano »

https://twitter.com/sterlewine/status/1 ... 33258?s=20

One of the participants, Stephen Thomas Erlewine from AllMusic/Pitchfork just picked Tom T. Hall’s “Ballad of Forty Dollars” as one of his choices
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Re: Predictions: Rolling Stone Top 500 Songs update 2021

Post by Elder »

Pitchfork is to publish a list of the best albums of the last 25 years for these days.
They were asking readers to submit their lists...
Fetch the Bolt Cutters...
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Re: Predictions: Rolling Stone Top 500 Songs update 2021

Post by Holden »

Elder wrote: Thu Aug 26, 2021 1:22 pm Pitchfork is to publish a list of the best albums of the last 25 years for these days.
They were asking readers to submit their lists...
I found the site, are they just having a readers poll, or are they also having a site list? Also, darn! Wish I’d known about this sooner, I’d have put in a list!
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Re: Predictions: Rolling Stone Top 500 Songs update 2021

Post by Nassim »

Elder wrote: Thu Aug 26, 2021 1:22 pm Pitchfork is to publish a list of the best albums of the last 25 years for these days.
They were asking readers to submit their lists...
They did a similar reader poll 10 (or was it 5?) years ago and they didn't post their own list, so I don't think it's guaranteed they'll publish one this time !
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Re: Predictions: Rolling Stone Top 500 Songs update 2021

Post by Elder »

Nassim wrote: Thu Aug 26, 2021 8:22 pm
Elder wrote: Thu Aug 26, 2021 1:22 pm Pitchfork is to publish a list of the best albums of the last 25 years for these days.
They were asking readers to submit their lists...
They did a similar reader poll 10 (or was it 5?) years ago and they didn't post their own list, so I don't think it's guaranteed they'll publish one this time !
Yes you are right.
But I have faith that this time these lazy critics will do their job...
Fetch the Bolt Cutters...
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Re: Predictions: Rolling Stone Top 500 Songs update 2021

Post by Elder »

Holden wrote: Thu Aug 26, 2021 6:28 pm
Elder wrote: Thu Aug 26, 2021 1:22 pm Pitchfork is to publish a list of the best albums of the last 25 years for these days.
They were asking readers to submit their lists...
I found the site, are they just having a readers poll, or are they also having a site list? Also, darn! Wish I’d known about this sooner, I’d have put in a list!
I think the site's voting hasn't ended yet.
Fetch the Bolt Cutters...
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Re: Predictions: Rolling Stone Top 500 Songs update 2021

Post by Holden »

Elder wrote: Fri Aug 27, 2021 12:05 am
Holden wrote: Thu Aug 26, 2021 6:28 pm
Elder wrote: Thu Aug 26, 2021 1:22 pm Pitchfork is to publish a list of the best albums of the last 25 years for these days.
They were asking readers to submit their lists...
I found the site, are they just having a readers poll, or are they also having a site list? Also, darn! Wish I’d known about this sooner, I’d have put in a list!
I think the site's voting hasn't ended yet.
I'm going to add in a list since the poll application isn't closed, but it does say August 20th as the deadline.
"The better a singer's voice, the harder it is to believe what they're saying."
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Re: Predictions: Rolling Stone Top 500 Songs update 2021

Post by Nassim »

It’s written « the greatest songs of all time » on the October cover so it seems it’s coming soon !
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Re: Predictions: Rolling Stone Top 500 Songs update 2021

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Re: Predictions: Rolling Stone Top 500 Songs update 2021

Post by Rob »

This will end in tears.
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Re: Predictions: Rolling Stone Top 500 Songs update 2021

Post by Elder »

The list update was overshadowed by Dave Grohl on the cover of the magazine

:P

Tragic
:o
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