Predictions: Rolling Stone Top 500 Songs update 2021

jdizzle83
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Re: Predictions: Rolling Stone Top 500 Songs update 2021

Post by jdizzle83 »

I really don’t mean that your blog and list doesn’t deserve respect by the way.
Hymie
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Re: Predictions: Rolling Stone Top 500 Songs update 2021

Post by Hymie »

jdizzle83 wrote: Fri Jun 18, 2021 3:43 am
Hymie wrote: Fri Jun 18, 2021 3:35 am
jdizzle83 wrote: Fri Jun 18, 2021 3:22 am

Mostly I think because it was number one on Pitchfork’s 80s list and I think it’s kind of surpassing “When Doves Cry” as his signature song but I admit I could be completely off with that one.
Why does Pitchfork get more respect than this list, for example?

https://digitaldreamdoor.com/pages/best_songs80s.html
I don’t want to be rude, but that’s like asking why someone’s blog doesn’t get the same respect as the New York Times.
I don't get it. Pitchfork is an online music magazine that started as a blog. What makes you think that the person or people who did their 1980s list is more knowledgeable than Jeff B, who did our 1980s list?

From Wikipedia:

In late 1995, Ryan Schreiber, a recent high school graduate, created the magazine in Minneapolis. Influenced by local fanzines and KUOM, Schreiber, who had no previous writing experience, aimed to provide the Internet with a regularly updated resource for independent music.

After reading the article I am not impressed. They mainly cover independent acts from the past 25 years. That does not qualify them in any way to publish a Top Songs of the 1980s and for us to take it seriously as a knowledgeable source IMO. The guy who started Pitchfork was barely a teenager in 1989.
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Henrik
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Re: Predictions: Rolling Stone Top 500 Songs update 2021

Post by Henrik »

Hymie wrote: Fri Jun 18, 2021 1:31 am I'd like to see an all time list done with just female voters. When I was in high school I surveyed the entire school for each person's 3 favorite artists and 3 favorite songs. This was 1973. The favorite overall artist was Led Zep and "Stairway To Heaven" was the top song. For the girls only the favorite artist was Elton John and the favorite song was "Colour My World" by Chicago, which is not listed on the site here at all.
I once made a list based on female RYMers only. My result wasn’t that different from the main list though. RYMers are nerds and the female RYMers are, well, still nerds. :D
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Re: Predictions: Rolling Stone Top 500 Songs update 2021

Post by panam »

Henrik wrote: Fri Jun 18, 2021 8:33 am
Hymie wrote: Fri Jun 18, 2021 1:31 am I'd like to see an all time list done with just female voters. When I was in high school I surveyed the entire school for each person's 3 favorite artists and 3 favorite songs. This was 1973. The favorite overall artist was Led Zep and "Stairway To Heaven" was the top song. For the girls only the favorite artist was Elton John and the favorite song was "Colour My World" by Chicago, which is not listed on the site here at all.
I once made a list based on female RYMers only. My result wasn’t that different from the main list though. RYMers are nerds and the female RYMers are, well, still nerds. :D
When people from different genders are under the same cultural background you're going to have the same results. It's more interesting when you ask people from different ways of life. Even in your same country there are people closed to Anglo pop music and people that only listens to local stuff.
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Re: Predictions: Rolling Stone Top 500 Songs update 2021

Post by Live in Phoenix »

I'd be surprised if Purple Rain the song even came close. It topped Pitchfork's list, but it felt like an outlier and like Pitchfork being Pitchfork. I like the occasional bit of "blasphemy," but it's not necessarily indicative of a major re-appraisal. "A Day in the Life" topped Rolling Stone's special issue of "The Beatles: 100 Greatest Songs," so I'm guessing that indicates a change for the new 2021 song list -- same situation with "Gimme Shelter" (they both do incredibly on our own song polls, for that matter), though you never really know. It would typically work against a song on a best-of list to not be released as a single. Many more people are going to vote for the Rolling Stone song poll than would have voted for the Beatles' 100 Greatest Songs, but then, their lists used to all come out looking the same no matter what.
jdizzle83
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Re: Predictions: Rolling Stone Top 500 Songs update 2021

Post by jdizzle83 »

Live in Phoenix wrote: Fri Jun 18, 2021 6:34 pm I'd be surprised if Purple Rain the song even came close. It topped Pitchfork's list, but it felt like an outlier and like Pitchfork being Pitchfork. I like the occasional bit of "blasphemy," but it's not necessarily indicative of a major re-appraisal. "A Day in the Life" topped Rolling Stone's special issue of "The Beatles: 100 Greatest Songs," so I'm guessing that indicates a change for the new 2021 song list -- same situation with "Gimme Shelter" (they both do incredibly on our own song polls, for that matter), though you never really know. It would typically work against a song on a best-of list to not be released as a single. Many more people are going to vote for the Rolling Stone song poll than would have voted for the Beatles' 100 Greatest Songs, but then, their lists used to all come out looking the same no matter what.
I may be off about it being in the top 10 but if it doesn’t make the top 100 I’ll eat my hat.
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Re: Predictions: Rolling Stone Top 500 Songs update 2021

Post by Live in Phoenix »

jdizzle83 wrote: Fri Jun 18, 2021 7:02 pm
I may be off about it being in the top 10 but if it doesn’t make the top 100 I’ll eat my hat.
It's possible. (You might want to keep some ketchup and mustard nearby.) Once they threw almost their entire top 10 out from their 2003 albums list, and Sgt. Pepper's went from Best Album Ever to Have You Seen Me?, it makes you think that a lot of things are possible, at least for what is still a fairly classic rock-oriented magazine.
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Re: Predictions: Rolling Stone Top 500 Songs update 2021

Post by Hymie »

panam wrote: Fri Jun 18, 2021 4:24 pm When people from different genders are under the same cultural background you're going to have the same results.
That's not what happened with the poll in my high school in 1973. The girls went for acts like Elton John, Cat Stevens, James Taylor, Chicago and Carole King while the boys went for Led Zep, The Who, ELP, The Stones and Jethro Tull.
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Re: Predictions: Rolling Stone Top 500 Songs update 2021

Post by Hymie »

We just updated our Top 500 list on Digital Dream Door.

We've added 3 songs to the list:

Hotline Bling - Drake
Alright - Kendrick Lamar
Bad Guy - Billie Eilish

They replace these:

Idioteque - Radiohead
The Boys Are Back in Town - Thin Lizzy
Tumbling Dice - The Rolling Stones

The top 460 of the list will be the same as before. The additions are in the bottom 40 of the list, and the songs remaining on that part of the list have been rearranged.

NEW LISTINGS IN RED


1. Respect - Aretha Franklin
2. Johnny B. Goode - Chuck Berry
3. Stairway to Heaven - Led Zeppelin
4. Louie Louie - The Kingsmen
5. I Heard It Through The Grapevine - Marvin Gaye
6. (I Can't Get No) Satisfaction - Rolling Stones
7. Jailhouse Rock - Elvis Presley
8. Rock Around The Clock - Bill Haley & His Comets
9. Billie Jean - Michael Jackson
10. Like A Rolling Stone - Bob Dylan
11. Hey Jude - Beatles
12. Good Vibrations - Beach Boys
13. Tutti-Frutti - Little Richard
14. What'd I Say - Ray Charles
15. Hotel California - Eagles
16. You've Lost That Lovin' Feelin' - Righteous Brothers
17. My Girl - Temptations
18. Imagine - John Lennon
19. What's Going On - Marvin Gaye
20. Smells Like Teen Spirit - Nirvana
21. Hound Dog - Elvis Presley
22. Born to Run - Bruce Springsteen
23. Light My Fire - Doors
24. Superstition - Stevie Wonder
25. Layla - Derek and the Dominos
26. Bohemian Rhapsody - Queen
27. She Loves You - Beatles
28. Summertime Blues - Eddie Cochran / Blue Cheer / The Who
29. You Really Got Me - Kinks / Van Halen
30. Bridge Over Troubled Water - Simon and Garfunkel
31. Let's Stay Together - Al Green
32. Long Tall Sally - Little Richard
33. Purple Haze - Jimi Hendrix Experience
34. A Day In The Life - Beatles
35. Whole Lot of Shakin' Going On - Jerry Lee Lewis
36. That'll Be The Day - Buddy Holly & the Crickets
37. Every Breath You Take - Police
38. In The Midnight Hour - Wilson Pickett
39. Maybellene - Chuck Berry
40. Bo Diddley - Bo Diddley
41. Papa's Got A Brand New Bag - James Brown
42. When Doves Cry - Prince
43. My Generation - The Who
44. Losing My Religion - R.E.M.
45. Sunshine Of Your Love - Cream
46. Whole Lotta Love - Led Zeppelin
47. One - U2
48. A Change Is Gonna Come - Sam Cooke
49. All Along The Watchtower - Jimi Hendrix Experience
50. The Message - Grandmaster Flash & The Furious Five
51. Great Balls Of Fire - Jerry Lee Lewis
52. Hey Ya - OutKast
53. Mr. Tambourine Man - Byrds / Bob Dylan
54. Proud Mary - Creedence Clearwater Revival / Ike & Tina Turner
55. Shake, Rattle And Roll - Joe Turner / Bill Haley and His Comets
56. Walk This Way - Aerosmith / Run-D.M.C.
57. Let It Be - Beatles
58. Maggie May - Rod Stewart
59. American Pie - Don McLean
60. (Sittin' On) The Dock Of The Bay - Otis Redding
61. Blue Suede Shoes - Carl Perkins / Elvis Presley
62. Don't Be Cruel - Elvis Presley
63. Won't Get Fooled Again - The Who
64. Stayin' Alive - Bee Gees
65. Free Bird - Lynyrd Skynyrd
66. Nuthin' But a "G" Thang - Dr. Dre & Snoop Dogg
67. Brown Sugar - Rolling Stones
68. Let's Get It On - Marvin Gaye
69. When A Man Loves A Woman - Percy Sledge
70. I Want To Hold Your Hand - Beatles
71. Good Rockin' Tonight - Wynonie Harris / Elvis Presley
72. Stand By Me - Ben E. King
73. I Will Survive - Gloria Gaynor
74. Super Freak - Rick James
75. A Whiter Shade Of Pale - Procol Harum
76. Be My Baby - Ronettes
77. Go Your Own Way - Fleetwood Mac
78. Papa Was a Rollin' Stone - Temptations
79. House Of The Rising Sun - Animals
80. Yesterday - Beatles
81. Where Did Our Love Go - Supremes
82. Rapper's Delight - Sugarhill Gang
83. I Want You Back - Jackson 5
84. I Love Rock 'N' Roll - Joan Jett & The Blackhearts
85. Don't You Want Me? - Human League
86. Jeremy - Pearl Jam
87. Heartbreak Hotel - Elvis Presley
88. Like a Virgin - Madonna
89. Beat It - Michael Jackson
90. Sweet Child O' Mine - Guns N' Roses
91. Under the Bridge - Red Hot Chili Peppers
92. Your Song - Elton John
93. You Shook Me All Night Long - AC/DC
94. Somebody To Love - Jefferson Airplane
95. Don't Stop Believin' - Journey
96. Soul Man - Sam & Dave
97. Twist And Shout - Beatles / Isley Brothers
98. Bye Bye Love - Everly Brothers
99. Earth Angel - Penguins
100. Crazy - Gnarls Barkley

101. Sexual Healing - Marvin Gaye
102. Midnight Train to Georgia - Gladys Knight and the Pips
103. Why Do Fools Fall In Love - Frankie Lymon & the Teenagers
104. Good Golly Miss Molly - Little Richard
105. More Than a Feeling - Boston
106. Just My Imagination - Temptations
107. Sweet Dreams - Eurythmics
108. Call Me - Blondie
109. Celebration - Kool & The Gang
110. Another One Bites the Dust - Queen
111. The Sounds Of Silence - Simon & Garfunkel
112. Tainted Love - Soft Cell
113. Roxanne - Police
114. Dream On - Aerosmith
115. Whip It- Devo
116. Another Brick in the Wall Part II - Pink Floyd
117. Be-Bop-A-Lula - Gene Vincent & the Blue Caps
118. Rock And Roll Music - Chuck Berry / Beatles
119. I Saw Her Standing There - Beatles
120. I Get Around - Beach Boys
121. Reach Out, I'll Be There - Four Tops
122. Peggy Sue - Buddy Holly
123. Gimme Some Lovin' - Spencer Davis Group
124. No Woman, No Cry - Bob Marley and the Wailers
125. London Calling - The Clash
126. Ain't Too Proud To Beg - Temptations
127. Lawdy Miss Clawdy - Lloyd Price
128. Roll Over Beethoven - Chuck Berry
129. Family Affair - Sly and the Family Stone
130. We Will Rock You / We Are the Champions - Queen
131. Sweet Home Alabama - Lynyrd Skynyrd
132. Smoke on the Water - Deep Purple
133. Green Onions - Booker T. & the MGs
134. Dancing In The Street - Martha & the Vandellas
135. Mony Mony - Tommy James & the Shondells / Billy Idol
136. In The Still Of The Nite - Five Satins
137. Jumpin' Jack Flash - Rolling Stones
138. Born To Be Wild - Steppenwolf
139. Oh, Pretty Woman - Roy Orbison
140. I Only Have Eyes For You - Flamingos
141. Anarchy in the U.K. - Sex Pistols
142. Dancing Queen - ABBA
143. Get Up (I Feel Like Being a) Sex Machine - James Brown
144. Waterfalls - TLC
145. White Room - Cream
146. Sympathy For The Devil - Rolling Stones
147. Living for the City - Stevie Wonder
148. Lola - Kinks
149. Girls Just Want To Have Fun - Cyndi Lauper
150. For What It's Worth - Buffalo Springfield
151. Sultans of Swing - Dire Straits
152. Lean on Me - Bill Withers
153. Planet Rock - Afrika Bambaataa & The Soul Sonic Force
154. What's Love Got To Do With It? - Tina Turner
155. Born In the U.S.A. - Bruce Springsteen
156. With Or Without You - U2
157. (You Gotta) Fight For Your Right (To Party) - Beastie Boys
158. Loser - Beck
159. Gangsta's Paradise - Coolio
160. Nothing Compares 2 U - Sinéad O'Connor
161. For Your Precious Love - Jerry Butler & the Impressions
162. Blueberry Hill - Fats Domino
163. Brown Eyed Girl - Van Morrison
164. The Tracks Of My Tears - Miracles
165. California Dreamin' - Mamas & the Papas
166. Who'll Stop the Rain - Creedence Clearwater Revival
167. Kashmir - Led Zeppelin
168. Heart of Glass - Blondie
169. Theme from "Shaft" - Isaac Hayes
170. Me and Bobby McGee - Janis Joplin
171. Baba O'Riley - The Who
172. Fire and Rain - James Taylor
173. Paranoid - Black Sabbath
174. Heart of Gold - Neil Young
175. Wonderwall - Oasis
176. Doo Wop (That Thing) - Lauryn Hill
177. Money For Nothing - Dire Straits
178. Eight Miles High - Byrds
179. Strawberry Fields Forever - Beatles
180. Nights In White Satin - Moody Blues
181. Little Red Corvette - Prince
182. Please, Please, Please - James Brown & the Famous Flames
183. Lose Yourself - Eminem
184. Creep - Radiohead
185. California Love - 2Pac
186. Enter Sandman - Metallica
187. Walk on the Wild Side - Lou Reed
188. It's Too Late - Carole King
189. Into the Groove - Madonna
190. Blowin' In The Wind - Bob Dylan
191. Will You Love Me Tomorrow - Shirelles
192. Georgia On My Mind - Ray Charles
193. Dazed And Confused - Led Zeppelin
194. Gimme Shelter - Rolling Stones
195. I Still Haven't Found What I'm Looking For - U2
196. Heart Full Of Soul - Yardbirds
197. People Get Ready - Impressions
198. Suite: Judy Blue Eyes - Crosby, Stills & Nash
199. All Right Now - Free
200. Paradise By the Dashboard Light - Meat Loaf

201. Jump - Van Halen
202. Crazy in Love - Beyoncé feat. Jay-Z
203. Love Will Tear Us Apart - Joy Division
204. Tears In Heaven - Eric Clapton
205. Shout - Isley Brothers / Otis Day and the Knights
206. Get Ur Freak On - Missy Misdemeanor Elliot
207. I Walk The Line - Johnny Cash and the Tennessee Two
208. Bring It On Home To Me - Sam Cooke
209. You've Really Got A Hold On Me - Miracles
210. Good Times - Chic
211. (Don't Fear) The Reaper - Blue Öyster Cult
212. If You Don't Know Me by Now - Harold Melvin & the Blue Notes
213. All Night Long (All Night) - Lionel Richie
214. You Oughta Know - Alanis Morissette
215. Seven Nation Army - The White Stripes
216. Sh-Boom - Chords / Crew Cuts
217. Aqualung - Jethro Tull
218. Honky Tonk Women - Rolling Stones
219. Riders On the Storm - Doors
220. Black Magic Woman - Santana
221. Blue Monday - New Order
222. 1979 - Smashing Pumpkins
223. Clocks - Coldplay
224. The Great Pretender - Platters
225. Ain't It A Shame - Fats Domino
226. Bad Moon Rising - Creedence Clearwater Revival
227. Revolution - Beatles
228. I Wanna Be Sedated - Ramones
229. Money - Pink Floyd
230. Relax - Frankie Goes To Hollywood
231. Paranoid Android - Radiohead
232. Paper Planes - M.I.A.
233. Money Honey - Drifters featuring Clyde McPhatter
234. A Hard Day's Night - Beatles
235. You Keep Me Hangin' On - Supremes
236. Piano Man - Billy Joel
237. Killing Me Softly with His Song - Roberta Flack / Fugees
238. Addicted To Love - Robert Palmer
239. Runaway - Del Shannon
240. Fuck You (Forget You) - Cee Lo Green
241. All Shook Up - Elvis Presley
242. Wild Thing - Troggs
243. She's Not There - Zombies
244. Thunder Road - Bruce Springsteen
245. Comfortably Numb - Pink Floyd
246. Livin On a Prayer - Bon Jovi
247. Fever - Little Willie John
248. The Loco-Motion - Little Eva
249. I'm A Believer - Monkees / Smash Mouth
250. Dance To The Music - Sly and the Family Stone
251. Roundabout - Yes
252. Empire State Of Mind - Jay-Z featuring Alicia Keys
253. Low Rider - War
254. That's All Right - Elvis Presley with Scotty and Bill
255. Surfin' U.S.A. - Beach Boys
256. Hot Stuff - Donna Summer
257. It Takes Two - Rob Base & D.J. E-Z Rock
258. The Wanderer - Dion
259. Smooth - Santana feat. Rob Thomas
260. You Ain't Seen Nothin' Yet - Bachman-Turner Overdrive
261. The Train Kept-A-Rollin - Johnny Burnette Trio
262. Pledging My Love - Johnny Ace
263. God Only Knows - Beach Boys
264. The Letter - Box Tops
265. Under The Boardwalk - Drifters
266. I'll Take You There - Staple Singers
267. Love Train - O'Jays
268. Don't Stop 'Til You Get Enough - Michael Jackson
269. Mystery Train - Elvis Presley with Scotty and Bill
270. Enjoy the Silence - Depeche Mode
271. Jump Around - House of Pain
272. Sixty Minute Man - Dominoes
273. Rocket 88 - Jackie Brenston
274. Gloria - Them / Shadows Of Knight
275. Don't Speak - No Doubt
276. I Can See For Miles - The Who
277. Rock And Roll - Led Zeppelin
278. Old Time Rock 'n' Roll - Bob Seger & the Silver Bullet Band
279. No Diggity - BLACKstreet
280. Blitzkrieg Bop - Ramones
281. Black Hole Sun - Soundgarden
282. Sabotage - Beastie Boys
283. How Will I Know? - Whitney Houston
284. Fight the Power - Public Enemy
285. Sweet Little Sixteen - Chuck Berry
286. Yakety Yak - Coasters
287. Glad All Over - Dave Clark Five
288. Runaround Sue - Dion
289. One Nation Under a Groove - Funkadelic
290. Crying - Roy Orbison
291. Y.M.C.A. - Village People
292. Dreamlover - Mariah Carey
293. My Name Is - Eminem
294. I Got You (I Feel Good) - James Brown
295. Changes - David Bowie
296. The Twist - Chubby Checker
297. Killing In the Name - Rage Against The Machine
298. Iris - Goo Goo Dolls
200. Jesus Walks - Kanye West
300. Folsom Prison Blues - Johnny Cash and the Tennessee Two

301. In the Air Tonight - Phil Collins
302. Ain't No Sunshine - Bill Withers
303. Bittersweet Symphony - The Verve
304. Come As You Are - Nirvana
305. How Soon Is Now? - The Smiths
306. Wish You Were Here - Pink Floyd
307. Rolling In The Deep - Adele
308. Kiss - Prince
309. La Bamba - Ritchie Valens / Los Lobos
310. At Last - Etta James
311. Have You Ever Seen the Rain - Creedence Clearwater Revival
312. Song 2 - Blur
313. Hungry Like the Wolf - Duran Duran
314. Highway to Hell - AC/DC
315. The Times They Are A'Changin' - Bob Dylan
316. You Send Me - Sam Cooke
317. Single Ladies (Put a Ring On It) - Beyoncé
318. Careless Whisper - Wham! feat. George Michael
319. Heroes - David Bowie
320. Everyday People - Sly & the Family Stone
321. Alive - Pearl Jam
322. School Day (Ring! Ring! Goes The Bell) - Chuck Berry
323. Pour Some Sugar On Me - Def Leppard
324. November Rain - Guns N' Roses
325. Help! - Beatles
326. Truckin' - Grateful Dead
327. Fallin' - Alicia Keys
328. Take On Me - A-Ha
329. Lucille - Little Richard
330. I Can't Stop Loving You - Ray Charles
331. September - Earth, Wind & Fire
332. It Was a Good Day - Ice Cube
333. Rock the Casbah - The Clash
334. Black or White - Michael Jackson
335. Thank You (Falettinme Be Mice Elf Agin) - Sly & the Family Stone
336. All I Have To Do Is Dream - Everly Brothers
337. Last Nite - The Strokes
338. Do You Really Want To Hurt Me? - Culture Club
339. My Sweet Lord - George Harrison
340. Something - Beatles
341. War - Edwin Starr
342. There Goes My Baby - Drifters
343. Rapture - Blondie
344. (Everything I Do) I Do It for You - Bryan Adams
345. California Girls - Beach Boys
346. Message in a Bottle - The Police
347. Take Me Out - Franz Ferdinand
348. Fast Car - Tracy Chapman
349. Wake Up Little Susie - Everly Brothers
350. You Can't Hurry Love - Supremes
351. Black Dog - Led Zeppelin
352. U Can't Touch This - MC Hammer
353. Flashdance...What a Feeling - Irene Cara
354. Vogue - Madonna
355. I Can't Help Myself - Four Tops
356. I've Got A Woman - Ray Charles
357. Umbrella - Rihanna feat. Jay-Z
358. 1999 - Prince
359. I Feel Love - Donna Summer
360. Hit The Road Jack - Ray Charles
361. Dreams - Fleetwood Mac
362. Rave On - Buddy Holly
363. Word Up! - Cameo
364. Regulate - Warren G
365. Penny Lane - Beatles
366. Rock with You - Michael Jackson
367. Yeah! - Usher feat. Lil' Jon and Ludacris
368. Come On Eileen - Dexys Midnight Runners
369. Money - Barrett Strong / Beatles
370. It's Your Thing - Isley Brothers
371. One Love - Bob Marley and the Wailers
372. Zombie - The Cranberries
373. Purple Rain - Prince
374. Baby Got Back - Sir Mix-a-Lot
375. White Rabbit - Jefferson Airplane
376. Who Do You Love - Bo Diddley
377. Rehab - Amy Winehouse
378. Start Me Up - Rolling Stones
379. You Are the Sunshine of My Life - Stevie Wonder
380. Fortunate Son - Creedence Clearwater Revival
381. Play That Funky Music - Wild Cherry
382. Rumble - Link Wray
383. We Got The Beat - The Go-Go's
384. Everlong - Foo Fighters
385. In My Life - Beatles
386. 25 or 6 to 4 - Chicago
387. In Da Club - 50 Cent
388. Jessie's Girl - Rick Springfield
389. Rocking Pneumonia and the Boogie Woogie Flu - Huey "Piano" Smith / Johnny Rivers
390. Paint It, Black - Rolling Stones
391. School's Out - Alice Cooper
392. Juicy - The Notorious B.I.G.
393. The Boys of Summer - Don Henley
394. Tired of Being Alone - Al Green
395. Only The Lonely - Roy Orbison
396. Kansas City - Wilbert Harrison
397. Feel Good Inc. - Gorillaz
398. Summer of '69 - Bryan Adams
399. Unchained Melody - Righteous Brothers / Al Hibbler
400. Basket Case - Green Day

401. Tangled Up in Blue - Bob Dylan
402. Lonely Teardrops - Jackie Wilson
403. Push It - Salt-N-Pepa
404. Nothing Else Matters - Metallica
405. Walk On By - Dionne Warwick / Isaac Hayes
406. Le Freak - Chic
407. Gold Digger - Kanye West
408. Waterloo Sunset - Kinks
409. Crying In The Chapel - Orioles / Elvis Presley
410. Up On The Roof - Drifters
411. Goodbye Yellow Brick Road - Elton John
412. Say My Name - Destiny's Child
413. Back In Black - AC/DC
414. Heart-Shaped Box - Nirvana
415. Tears Of A Clown - Smokey Robinson & the Miracles
416. I Put A Spell On You - Screamin' Jay Hawkins
417. Cry Me A River - Justin Timberlake
418. Nasty - Janet Jackson
419. Get Up, Stand Up - Bob Marley and the Wailers
420. (Love Is Like A) Heat Wave - Martha & the Vandellas/Linda Ronstadt
421. Everybody Hurts - R.E.M.
422. Sincerely - Moonglows
423. Time After Time - Cyndi Lauper
424. God Save the Queen - The Sex Pistols
425. Chain Of Fools - Aretha Franklin
426. Mercy Mercy Me - Marvin Gaye
427. 99 Problems - Jay-Z
428. Thriller - Michael Jackson
429. At The Hop - Danny & the Juniors
430. 96 Tears - ? & the Mysterians
431. Knockin' on Heaven's Door - Bob Dylan / Guns N' Roses
432. ...Baby One More Time - Britney Spears
433. I Wanna Dance With Somebody (Who Loves Me) - Whitney Houston
434. Rock and Roll All Nite - KISS
435. Don't Worry Baby - Beach Boys
436. Honky Tonk - Bill Doggett
437. Just The Way You Are - Bruno Mars
438. It's the End of the World As We Know It (And I Feel Fine) - R.E.M.
439. All the Small Things - Blink 182
440. You Can't Always Get What You Want - Rolling Stones
441. Bang a Gong (Get It On) - T. Rex
442. River Deep, Mountain High - Ike & Tina Turner
443. Pump Up the Jam - Technotronic feat. Felly
444. Once in a Lifetime - Talking Heads
445. Turn, Turn, Turn - Byrds
446. Hypnotize - The Notorious B.I.G.
447. I Gotta Feeling - Black Eyed Peas
448. Back To Life - Soul II Soul
449. Wooly Bully - Sam the Sham & the Pharaohs
450. Rocket Man - Elton John
451. Friday I'm in Love - The Cure
452. Love Shack - B-52's
453. We Are Family - Sister Sledge
454. Baby I Need Your Lovin' - Four Tops / Johnny Rivers
455. Sweet Caroline - Neil Diamond
456. Ms. Jackson - OutKast
457. The Breaks - Kurtis Blow
458. Dear Mama - 2Pac
459. (Your Love Keeps Lifting Me) Higher And Higher - Jackie Wilson
460. Miss You - The Rolling Stones
461. Hotline Bling - Drake
462. Get Lucky - Daft Punk (feat. Pharrell Williams)
463. Like A Prayer - Madonna
464. Come Go With Me - Dell-Vikings
465. Alright - Kendrick Lamar
466. Subterranean Homesick Blues - Bob Dylan
467. The Weight - The Band / Aretha Franklin
468. Suspicious Minds - Elvis Presley
469. Welcome To the Jungle - Guns N' Roses
470. Try A Little Tenderness - Otis Redding
471. Bad Guy - Billie Eilish
472. Buddy Holly - Weezer
473. Gin & Juice - Snoop Doggy Dogg
474. You're So Vain - Carly Simon
475. Closer - Nine Inch Nails
476. Free Fallin' - Tom Petty
477. Maybe I'm Amazed - Paul McCartney
478. Uptown Funk - Mark Ronson (feat. Bruno Mars)
479. Pinball Wizard - The Who
480. Love Potion No. 9 - Clovers / Searchers
481. HUMBLE. - Kendrick Lamar
482. Sledgehammer - Peter Gabriel
483. Da Doo Ron Ron (When He Walked Me Home) - Crystals
484. All My Friends - LCD Soundsystem
485. I'm Waiting For The Man - Velvet Underground
486. I've Been Loving You Too Long - Otis Redding
487. Higher Ground - Stevie Wonder
488. I Want To Know What Love Is - Foreigner
489. Don't You (Forget About Me) - Simple Minds
490. I'll Be There - The Jackson 5
491. Train in Vain (Stand By Me) - The Clash
492. Willie And The Hand Jive - Johnny Otis Show
493. Brick House - The Commodores
494. Me, Myself and I - De La Soul
495. I Got You Babe - Sonny & Cher
496. Tequila - Champs
497. No Scrubs - TLC
498. Take It Easy - Eagles
499. I Never Loved A Man (The Way I Love You) - Aretha Franklin
500. Africa - Toto / Weezer
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Re: Predictions: Rolling Stone Top 500 Songs update 2021

Post by VanillaFire1000 »

Hymie wrote: Fri Jun 18, 2021 4:07 am
From Wikipedia:

In late 1995, Ryan Schreiber, a recent high school graduate, created the magazine in Minneapolis. Influenced by local fanzines and KUOM, Schreiber, who had no previous writing experience, aimed to provide the Internet with a regularly updated resource for independent music.

After reading the article I am not impressed. They mainly cover independent acts from the past 25 years. That does not qualify them in any way to publish a Top Songs of the 1980s and for us to take it seriously as a knowledgeable source IMO. The guy who started Pitchfork was barely a teenager in 1989.
This is disregarding how the public treats the website, and the cultural and critical caché is has attained over the past twenty years.

Just because a person wasn't alive during the time period means they can't understand something about it. Sometimes it has its advantages.
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Re: Predictions: Rolling Stone Top 500 Songs update 2021

Post by Hymie »

VanillaFire1000 wrote: Mon Jun 21, 2021 11:02 pm
Hymie wrote: Fri Jun 18, 2021 4:07 am
From Wikipedia:

In late 1995, Ryan Schreiber, a recent high school graduate, created the magazine in Minneapolis. Influenced by local fanzines and KUOM, Schreiber, who had no previous writing experience, aimed to provide the Internet with a regularly updated resource for independent music.

After reading the article I am not impressed. They mainly cover independent acts from the past 25 years. That does not qualify them in any way to publish a Top Songs of the 1980s and for us to take it seriously as a knowledgeable source IMO. The guy who started Pitchfork was barely a teenager in 1989.
This is disregarding how the public treats the website, and the cultural and critical caché is has attained over the past twenty years.

Just because a person wasn't alive during the time period means they can't understand something about it. Sometimes it has its advantages.
Apples with apples, someone who lived through those years is much more likely to have a better idea of that era than someone who didn't. As for the cache, it's all bout the music from the 25 years that the the online magazine has existed. That doesn't give them any special insight into the years from before then.
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Re: Predictions: Rolling Stone Top 500 Songs update 2021

Post by FrankLotion »

Hymie wrote: Mon Jun 21, 2021 11:09 pm
VanillaFire1000 wrote: Mon Jun 21, 2021 11:02 pm
Hymie wrote: Fri Jun 18, 2021 4:07 am
From Wikipedia:

In late 1995, Ryan Schreiber, a recent high school graduate, created the magazine in Minneapolis. Influenced by local fanzines and KUOM, Schreiber, who had no previous writing experience, aimed to provide the Internet with a regularly updated resource for independent music.

After reading the article I am not impressed. They mainly cover independent acts from the past 25 years. That does not qualify them in any way to publish a Top Songs of the 1980s and for us to take it seriously as a knowledgeable source IMO. The guy who started Pitchfork was barely a teenager in 1989.
This is disregarding how the public treats the website, and the cultural and critical caché is has attained over the past twenty years.

Just because a person wasn't alive during the time period means they can't understand something about it. Sometimes it has its advantages.
Apples with apples, someone who lived through those years is much more likely to have a better idea of that era than someone who didn't. As for the cache, it's all bout the music from the 25 years that the the online magazine has existed. That doesn't give them any special insight into the years from before then.
As a totally unrelated non-sequitur, how old were you in 1959?
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Re: Predictions: Rolling Stone Top 500 Songs update 2021

Post by Harold »

FrankLotion wrote: Tue Jun 22, 2021 12:10 am
Hymie wrote: Mon Jun 21, 2021 11:09 pm Apples with apples, someone who lived through those years is much more likely to have a better idea of that era than someone who didn't. As for the cache, it's all bout the music from the 25 years that the the online magazine has existed. That doesn't give them any special insight into the years from before then.
As a totally unrelated non-sequitur, how old were you in 1959?
Hymie has a point, though. Very few of the writers currently writing about classical music were alive when Beethoven and Bach were active.
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Re: Predictions: Rolling Stone Top 500 Songs update 2021

Post by Hymie »

FrankLotion wrote: Tue Jun 22, 2021 12:10 am
As a totally unrelated non-sequitur, how old were you in 1959?
I turned 2 in September.
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Re: Predictions: Rolling Stone Top 500 Songs update 2021

Post by Gillingham »

Hymie wrote: Mon Jun 21, 2021 11:09 pm
VanillaFire1000 wrote: Mon Jun 21, 2021 11:02 pm
Hymie wrote: Fri Jun 18, 2021 4:07 am
From Wikipedia:

In late 1995, Ryan Schreiber, a recent high school graduate, created the magazine in Minneapolis. Influenced by local fanzines and KUOM, Schreiber, who had no previous writing experience, aimed to provide the Internet with a regularly updated resource for independent music.

After reading the article I am not impressed. They mainly cover independent acts from the past 25 years. That does not qualify them in any way to publish a Top Songs of the 1980s and for us to take it seriously as a knowledgeable source IMO. The guy who started Pitchfork was barely a teenager in 1989.
This is disregarding how the public treats the website, and the cultural and critical caché is has attained over the past twenty years.

Just because a person wasn't alive during the time period means they can't understand something about it. Sometimes it has its advantages.
Apples with apples, someone who lived through those years is much more likely to have a better idea of that era than someone who didn't. As for the cache, it's all bout the music from the 25 years that the the online magazine has existed. That doesn't give them any special insight into the years from before then.
Maybe. Maybe not. Who has a better understanding of Roman politics and culture, an expert professor on the topic, or a random roman citizen who happened to live through it? Not such an obvious answer there...

Also, current all-time song lists are not about the impact/acclaim of songs in that era, but about how it is perceived when the list is made.
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Re: Predictions: Rolling Stone Top 500 Songs update 2021

Post by Hymie »

Gillingham wrote: Wed Jun 23, 2021 8:11 am
Also, current all-time song lists are not about the impact/acclaim of songs in that era, but about how it is perceived when the list is made.
Oh, I disagree. It should be a combination of both. An objective look at the overall impact of each item in the entire history since the item was released.
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Re: Predictions: Rolling Stone Top 500 Songs update 2021

Post by Hymie »

Gillingham wrote: Wed Jun 23, 2021 8:11 am Maybe. Maybe not. Who has a better understanding of Roman politics and culture, an expert professor on the topic, or a random roman citizen who happened to live through it? Not such an obvious answer there...
We're not talking about "random" citizens here. "Apples with apples" means if we could get an expert who lived through those times and an expert from now, the expert who lived through those times will have a much sharper understanding of what things were like then. A random citizen from then would know infinitely more than a random citizen from now.

And my contention is that writers from Pitchfork are NOT experts in 1980s music. Far from it. I think that's the problem here, that some people in this forum assume that someone who works for a well known music place is an expert on music. If that was true I would not have had to make over 500 factual corrections to the Rock & Roll Hall of Fame's website 10 years ago.
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Re: Predictions: Rolling Stone Top 500 Songs update 2021

Post by jdizzle83 »

Hymie wrote: Wed Jun 23, 2021 3:10 pm
Gillingham wrote: Wed Jun 23, 2021 8:11 am Maybe. Maybe not. Who has a better understanding of Roman politics and culture, an expert professor on the topic, or a random roman citizen who happened to live through it? Not such an obvious answer there...
We're not talking about "random" citizens here. "Apples with apples" means if we could get an expert who lived through those times and an expert from now, the expert who lived through those times will have a much sharper understanding of what things were like then. A random citizen from then would know infinitely more than a random citizen from now.

And my contention is that writers from Pitchfork are NOT experts in 1980s music. Far from it. I think that's the problem here, that some people in this forum assume that someone who works for a well known music place is an expert on music. If that was true I would not have had to make over 500 factual corrections to the Rock & Roll Hall of Fame's website 10 years ago.
500!!!!

Dude, you can come up with a more believable lie.

Aim a bit lower next time. “I had to fix more than 30 mistakes on the Hall of Fame” website. People might actually believe you.
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Re: Predictions: Rolling Stone Top 500 Songs update 2021

Post by Hymie »

jdizzle83 wrote: Wed Jun 23, 2021 5:05 pm
Hymie wrote: Wed Jun 23, 2021 3:10 pm
Gillingham wrote: Wed Jun 23, 2021 8:11 am Maybe. Maybe not. Who has a better understanding of Roman politics and culture, an expert professor on the topic, or a random roman citizen who happened to live through it? Not such an obvious answer there...
We're not talking about "random" citizens here. "Apples with apples" means if we could get an expert who lived through those times and an expert from now, the expert who lived through those times will have a much sharper understanding of what things were like then. A random citizen from then would know infinitely more than a random citizen from now.

And my contention is that writers from Pitchfork are NOT experts in 1980s music. Far from it. I think that's the problem here, that some people in this forum assume that someone who works for a well known music place is an expert on music. If that was true I would not have had to make over 500 factual corrections to the Rock & Roll Hall of Fame's website 10 years ago.
500!!!!

Dude, you can come up with a more believable lie.

Aim a bit lower next time. “I had to fix more than 30 mistakes on the Hall of Fame” website. People might actually believe you.
It was over 500 corrections. Took me more than a week to finish it working like 5-6 hours a day. I gave them way to low of a price, $300, thinking that it would only take a couple of days.
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Re: Predictions: Rolling Stone Top 500 Songs update 2021

Post by jdizzle83 »

Hymie wrote: Wed Jun 23, 2021 5:13 pm
jdizzle83 wrote: Wed Jun 23, 2021 5:05 pm
Hymie wrote: Wed Jun 23, 2021 3:10 pm

We're not talking about "random" citizens here. "Apples with apples" means if we could get an expert who lived through those times and an expert from now, the expert who lived through those times will have a much sharper understanding of what things were like then. A random citizen from then would know infinitely more than a random citizen from now.

And my contention is that writers from Pitchfork are NOT experts in 1980s music. Far from it. I think that's the problem here, that some people in this forum assume that someone who works for a well known music place is an expert on music. If that was true I would not have had to make over 500 factual corrections to the Rock & Roll Hall of Fame's website 10 years ago.
500!!!!

Dude, you can come up with a more believable lie.

Aim a bit lower next time. “I had to fix more than 30 mistakes on the Hall of Fame” website. People might actually believe you.
It was over 500 corrections. Took me more than a week to finish it working like 5-6 hours a day. I gave them way to low of a price, $300, thinking that it would only take a couple of days.
Okay. In all seriousness, you said you were born in the late 50s. But I have seen your lists and passion for 50s music. Wouldn’t you say you’re an expert on it, with valid taste? Like, if I want to check out some music from the 50s, I’d probably see what you’d say, even though you were only a baby then. But you know enough, that you seem to be an expert with an opinion worth noting.
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Re: Predictions: Rolling Stone Top 500 Songs update 2021

Post by jdizzle83 »

In non-Hymie related conversation, but going back to predictions, here’s a random one:

Pavement will now have two songs: “Summer Babe” (which made the last list) and “Gold Soundz.”

Anyone listening to the 60 Songs That Explain the 90a podcast? Amazing.
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Re: Predictions: Rolling Stone Top 500 Songs update 2021

Post by Hymie »

jdizzle83 wrote: Wed Jun 23, 2021 5:19 pm
Hymie wrote: Wed Jun 23, 2021 5:13 pm
jdizzle83 wrote: Wed Jun 23, 2021 5:05 pm

500!!!!

Dude, you can come up with a more believable lie.

Aim a bit lower next time. “I had to fix more than 30 mistakes on the Hall of Fame” website. People might actually believe you.
It was over 500 corrections. Took me more than a week to finish it working like 5-6 hours a day. I gave them way too low of a price, $300, thinking that it would only take a couple of days.
Okay. In all seriousness, you said you were born in the late 50s. But I have seen your lists and passion for 50s music. Wouldn’t you say you’re an expert on it, with valid taste? Like, if I want to check out some music from the 50s, I’d probably see what you’d say, even though you were only a baby then. But you know enough, that you seem to be an expert with an opinion worth noting.
Yes, but I am one in a billion. And my taste is very different from most around here, who seem to like 50s jazz, pop and folk as much or more than the stuff I like best, which is R&B, rockabilly, rock and roll, doo wop.
Last edited by Hymie on Wed Jun 23, 2021 6:05 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Predictions: Rolling Stone Top 500 Songs update 2021

Post by Henry »

Hymie wrote: Wed Jun 23, 2021 3:06 pm
Gillingham wrote: Wed Jun 23, 2021 8:11 am
Also, current all-time song lists are not about the impact/acclaim of songs in that era, but about how it is perceived when the list is made.
Oh, I disagree. It should be a combination of both. An objective look at the overall impact of each item in the entire history since the item was released.
I agree that it should be a combination of both. But, the perception at the time the list is made should already address both past and current impact.

Please share with us your understanding of the meaning of the term "objective."

Thanks!
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Re: Predictions: Rolling Stone Top 500 Songs update 2021

Post by Hymie »

Henry wrote: Wed Jun 23, 2021 7:22 pm
Hymie wrote: Wed Jun 23, 2021 3:06 pm
Gillingham wrote: Wed Jun 23, 2021 8:11 am
Also, current all-time song lists are not about the impact/acclaim of songs in that era, but about how it is perceived when the list is made.
Oh, I disagree. It should be a combination of both. An objective look at the overall impact of each item in the entire history since the item was released.
I agree that it should be a combination of both. But, the perception at the time the list is made should already address both past and current impact.

Please share with us your understanding of the meaning of the term "objective."

Thanks!
When I say objective, I mean that when putting together these lists of the greatest records of all time, or of a decade, or a year, the editor of the list should NOT be going by his or her own taste AT ALL. The editor should be trying to gauge the overall popularity, influence, impact, and (perhaps) acclaim of each record without any regard to his or her personal opinion of the record.
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Re: Predictions: Rolling Stone Top 500 Songs update 2021

Post by Henry »

Objectivity needs to limit the influence of group bias and general bias as well as individual bias. There are three types of objectivity: absolute, normative and experiential.

The metrics you cite are not inherently objective and there are few if any metrics available for evaluating musical performances that qualify as objective or reproducible in a scientifically meaningful or normative manner.

That said, eliminating personal bias as you have described does help make the results a bit more objective in the experiential mode.
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Re: Predictions: Rolling Stone Top 500 Songs update 2021

Post by Gillingham »

Hymie wrote: Wed Jun 23, 2021 3:06 pm
Gillingham wrote: Wed Jun 23, 2021 8:11 am
Also, current all-time song lists are not about the impact/acclaim of songs in that era, but about how it is perceived when the list is made.
Oh, I disagree. It should be a combination of both. An objective look at the overall impact of each item in the entire history since the item was released.
Objective? There is no 'objective' in a list of personal favorites of a selected group of voters.
The Rolling Stone website on their own list of 500 Greatest Albums of All Time: Voters were asked to submit ranked ballots listing their 50 favorite albums of all time.

So you can disagree on what it should be, but objective is simply not what it is. And I'm happy an objective list wasn't the goal, because that's simply impossible when it comes to something like favorite music.
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Re: Predictions: Rolling Stone Top 500 Songs update 2021

Post by Gillingham »

Hymie wrote: Wed Jun 23, 2021 3:10 pm
Gillingham wrote: Wed Jun 23, 2021 8:11 am Maybe. Maybe not. Who has a better understanding of Roman politics and culture, an expert professor on the topic, or a random roman citizen who happened to live through it? Not such an obvious answer there...
We're not talking about "random" citizens here. "Apples with apples" means if we could get an expert who lived through those times and an expert from now, the expert who lived through those times will have a much sharper understanding of what things were like then.
You were talking about 'someone', not about experts. It was your general claim.
A random citizen from then would know infinitely more than a random citizen from now.
I don't agree with this either.
A random citizen of this time and age would probably know more about, say, symphonic classical music of the 1800s than a random citizen from that time. Most of the last group wouldn't even have heard that kind of music at all.

A bit closer to home: The Velvet Underground wasn't very popular or very well known in the last 60s. Now they are perceived as one of the most influential pop music acts ever and almost every music enthusiast has heard their music.
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Re: Predictions: Rolling Stone Top 500 Songs update 2021

Post by Hymie »

Henry wrote: Thu Jun 24, 2021 6:32 am The metrics you cite are not inherently objective
Popularity is inherently objective. We have sales figures and chart positions and streams, etc. I break popularity into 2 separate categories, initial popularity and lasting popularity. Initial popularity can be measured objectively by chart positions in various countries.
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Re: Predictions: Rolling Stone Top 500 Songs update 2021

Post by Hymie »

Gillingham wrote: Thu Jun 24, 2021 12:01 pm
Hymie wrote: Wed Jun 23, 2021 3:06 pm
Gillingham wrote: Wed Jun 23, 2021 8:11 am
Also, current all-time song lists are not about the impact/acclaim of songs in that era, but about how it is perceived when the list is made.
Oh, I disagree. It should be a combination of both. An objective look at the overall impact of each item in the entire history since the item was released.
Objective? There is no 'objective' in a list of personal favorites of a selected group of voters.
Obviously not, which is why I don't put much stock in the Rolling Stone list. I was referring to the lists that we do on Digital Dream Door. This 500 is FAR superior to ANY other all time greatest Rock Songs list.

https://digitaldreamdoor.com/pages/best_songsddd.html
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Re: Predictions: Rolling Stone Top 500 Songs update 2021

Post by Hymie »

Gillingham wrote: Thu Jun 24, 2021 12:14 pm
Hymie wrote: Wed Jun 23, 2021 3:10 pm
Gillingham wrote: Wed Jun 23, 2021 8:11 am Maybe. Maybe not. Who has a better understanding of Roman politics and culture, an expert professor on the topic, or a random roman citizen who happened to live through it? Not such an obvious answer there...
We're not talking about "random" citizens here. "Apples with apples" means if we could get an expert who lived through those times and an expert from now, the expert who lived through those times will have a much sharper understanding of what things were like then.
You were talking about 'someone', not about experts. It was your general claim.
Nope. I was talking about people with equal expertise, one from the era and one from many years later. That's what "apples with apples" means, that all things are equal.
Gillingham wrote: Thu Jun 24, 2021 12:14 pm A bit closer to home: The Velvet Underground wasn't very popular or very well known in the last 60s. Now they are perceived as one of the most influential pop music acts ever and almost every music enthusiast has heard their music.
They are only perceived as influential by people who were not around when they were current. People like me who were around then think that they suck. Most people my age (63) and older have never heard the VU's music and could not even name one of their songs. And even if EVERY music enthusiast had heard their music, that would NOT mean that their music was good. Every music enthusiast has had diarrhea too, but that doesn't make diarrhea a good thing.
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Re: Predictions: Rolling Stone Top 500 Songs update 2021

Post by Hymie »

Gillingham wrote: Thu Jun 24, 2021 12:01 pm So you can disagree on what it should be, but objective is simply not what it is. And I'm happy an objective list wasn't the goal, because that's simply impossible when it comes to something like favorite music.
Which is exactly why these lists should not be based on "favorite" anything. Rather than asking for a list of favorites, voters should be asked for a list of the most significant records.
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Re: Predictions: Rolling Stone Top 500 Songs update 2021

Post by Henry »

Hymie wrote: Thu Jun 24, 2021 12:49 pm
Henry wrote: Thu Jun 24, 2021 6:32 am The metrics you cite are not inherently objective
Popularity is inherently objective. We have sales figures and chart positions and streams, etc. I break popularity into 2 separate categories, initial popularity and lasting popularity. Initial popularity can be measured objectively by chart positions in various countries.
Very funny Hymie :-)

Objective popularity is a classic oxymoron.

Popularity is quantifiable and measurable, not objective.
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Re: Predictions: Rolling Stone Top 500 Songs update 2021

Post by Gillingham »

Hymie wrote: Thu Jun 24, 2021 12:51 pm
Gillingham wrote: Thu Jun 24, 2021 12:01 pm
Hymie wrote: Wed Jun 23, 2021 3:06 pm

Oh, I disagree. It should be a combination of both. An objective look at the overall impact of each item in the entire history since the item was released.
Objective? There is no 'objective' in a list of personal favorites of a selected group of voters.
Obviously not, which is why I don't put much stock in the Rolling Stone list. I was referring to the lists that we do on Digital Dream Door. This 500 is FAR superior to ANY other all time greatest Rock Songs list.

https://digitaldreamdoor.com/pages/best_songsddd.html
It wasn't at all clear you were referring to your personal favorite list with your reply. You quoted me writing about 'current all time songs lists'. And most of these lists are about favorites, not about some unattainable objective criteria.
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Re: Predictions: Rolling Stone Top 500 Songs update 2021

Post by Gillingham »

Hymie wrote: Thu Jun 24, 2021 12:59 pm
Gillingham wrote: Thu Jun 24, 2021 12:14 pm
Hymie wrote: Wed Jun 23, 2021 3:10 pm

We're not talking about "random" citizens here. "Apples with apples" means if we could get an expert who lived through those times and an expert from now, the expert who lived through those times will have a much sharper understanding of what things were like then.
You were talking about 'someone', not about experts. It was your general claim.
Nope. I was talking about people with equal expertise, one from the era and one from many years later. That's what "apples with apples" means, that all things are equal.
Gillingham wrote: Thu Jun 24, 2021 12:14 pm A bit closer to home: The Velvet Underground wasn't very popular or very well known in the last 60s. Now they are perceived as one of the most influential pop music acts ever and almost every music enthusiast has heard their music.
They are only perceived as influential by people who were not around when they were current. People like me who were around then think that they suck. Most people my age (63) and older have never heard the VU's music and could not even name one of their songs. And even if EVERY music enthusiast had heard their music, that would NOT mean that their music was good. Every music enthusiast has had diarrhea too, but that doesn't make diarrhea a good thing.
Fair enough on the apples. The classical music example still stands though.

On VU: a fair bit of 'older' pop music journalists and enthusiasts do like or even love VU and would definitely acknowledge their influence. Maybe not in your circle, but that doesn't represent music enthusiasts as a whole.

And having heard their music doesn't make it good, true, but it does show a change in influence from the time when the music was made to a later time when they are known by a lot more music enthusiasts.
In that case the average current music enthusiast would simply know more about that band than when they were playing and practically nobody had heard them.
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Re: Predictions: Rolling Stone Top 500 Songs update 2021

Post by Jackson »

Because The Velvet Underground wasn't popular when they came out, there is this mystique around them like they are still this obscure band that few people know or listen to. That isn't true anymore. They have 3.8 million monthly listeners on Spotify and have four songs with 50mm+ streams. Their songs have been featured in TV/movie soundtracks many times. They aren't Beatles/Stones level of popularity and never will be, but they are far more popular today than many well-known hitmaking artists of the 60s.
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Re: Predictions: Rolling Stone Top 500 Songs update 2021

Post by Hymie »

Jackson wrote: Thu Jun 24, 2021 8:10 pm Because The Velvet Underground wasn't popular when they came out, there is this mystique around them like they are still this obscure band that few people know or listen to. That isn't true anymore. They have 3.8 million monthly listeners on Spotify and have four songs with 50mm+ streams. Their songs have been featured in TV/movie soundtracks many times. They aren't Beatles/Stones level of popularity and never will be, but they are far more popular today than many well-known hitmaking artists of the 60s.
Yes, but that popularity today is only among people who were not around listening to music when they were current. If I DJ'd a 50th reunion now for the class of 1971, I certainly would not be playing any VU music, and if I did I would get a bunch of blank stares from the 68 year old 1971 graduates who had no idea what this weird music was.

They apparently are the biggest influence on that stuff known as "Alterative Music." I've yet to hear ANYTHING classified as Alternative that I liked. The singers all drone in a monotone ala Lou Reed.
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Re: Predictions: Rolling Stone Top 500 Songs update 2021

Post by Hymie »

Henry wrote: Thu Jun 24, 2021 6:32 pm
Hymie wrote: Thu Jun 24, 2021 12:49 pm
Henry wrote: Thu Jun 24, 2021 6:32 am The metrics you cite are not inherently objective
Popularity is inherently objective. We have sales figures and chart positions and streams, etc. I break popularity into 2 separate categories, initial popularity and lasting popularity. Initial popularity can be measured objectively by chart positions in various countries.
Very funny Hymie :-)

Objective popularity is a classic oxymoron.

Popularity is quantifiable and measurable, not objective.
Objective meaning it's a fact, not just an opinion. It's a fact that THRILLER was a number one album in the US for 37 weeks. That doesn't change no matter who is reporting on it, as opposed to a subjective opinion such as whether or not Leonard Cohen's music is good.
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Re: Predictions: Rolling Stone Top 500 Songs update 2021

Post by jdizzle83 »

I feel like Hymie has a different idea than everyone else here about how these lists should be constructed, and there’s no changing his mind.

For various reasons we disagree on what canonization should look like. Hymie, using your reasoning, Avatar is the greatest film of all time. Avengers: Endgame is number two. The box office numbers in this sense would be “objective.” Yet I don’t think many would argue that to be true. On the album side of things, Hootie and the Blowfish made one of the best albums ever. Again, I’m not sure why you don’t just use the billboard numbers and call it good.

Again, not going to change your mind, but I think most users come here looking for something else from these lists. I’m not sure if you actually care about these lists then, since you’ve got yours and you’ve got the sales numbers.

But I do, and I think a lot of other folks do too.

Anyway, I am looking forward to this Rolling Stone list and to the shaking up of the canon a bit.
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Re: Predictions: Rolling Stone Top 500 Songs update 2021

Post by jdizzle83 »

And what I’m really hoping is that a 13 year old kid out there, just discovering music finds a new cool list and it blows their mind. Maybe they’ll see stuff they already know, but maybe they’ll find some new stuff too that they don’t see everywhere else because it’s not just about popularity. Maybe they’ll discover “Common People” (which I think will be on there this time) or “Fight the Power” or dozens of other songs that will change their life.
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Re: Predictions: Rolling Stone Top 500 Songs update 2021

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By the way, that kid was me 25 years ago. If it hadn’t been for these lists I’d probably not be the music fan I am today.
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Re: Predictions: Rolling Stone Top 500 Songs update 2021

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jdizzle83 wrote: Fri Jun 25, 2021 12:45 am I feel like Hymie has a different idea than everyone else here about how these lists should be constructed, and there’s no changing his mind.

For various reasons we disagree on what canonization should look like. Hymie, using your reasoning, Avatar is the greatest film of all time. Avengers: Endgame is number two. The box office numbers in this sense would be “objective.” Yet I don’t think many would argue that to be true. On the album side of things, Hootie and the Blowfish made one of the best albums ever. Again, I’m not sure why you don’t just use the billboard numbers and call it good.

Again, not going to change your mind, but I think most users come here looking for something else from these lists. I’m not sure if you actually care about these lists then, since you’ve got yours and you’ve got the sales numbers.

But I do, and I think a lot of other folks do too.

Anyway, I am looking forward to this Rolling Stone list and to the shaking up of the canon a bit.
You are totally misunderstanding me. Popularity is just one component of the criteria we use when making these lists. There is also impact, influence, maybe acclaim, and also one editor uses social impact, like when an artist or a record has impact beyond the music world.
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Re: Predictions: Rolling Stone Top 500 Songs update 2021

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jdizzle83 wrote: Fri Jun 25, 2021 12:50 am And what I’m really hoping is that a 13 year old kid out there, just discovering music finds a new cool list and it blows their mind. Maybe they’ll see stuff they already know, but maybe they’ll find some new stuff too that they don’t see everywhere else because it’s not just about popularity. Maybe they’ll discover “Common People” (which I think will be on there this time) or “Fight the Power” or dozens of other songs that will change their life.
"Fight The Power" is well known already. It plays several times during a very popular movie. There's also the Isley Brothers classic with the same name, which I like better than the PE record.

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Re: Predictions: Rolling Stone Top 500 Songs update 2021

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jdizzle83 wrote: Fri Jun 25, 2021 12:51 am By the way, that kid was me 25 years ago. If it hadn’t been for these lists I’d probably not be the music fan I am today.
There are dozens of people like you who have credited my DDD lists for exposing them to great 50s and 60s records that they had not known beforehand. The site gets millions of hits every month. If you Google "Greatest 1950s Songs" this is one of the first few things that comes up.

https://digitaldreamdoor.com/pages/best_songs50s.html


If you Google "Greatest Rock Songs" this is one of the first few things that comes up.

https://digitaldreamdoor.com/pages/best_songsddd.html

The owner of DDD knows how to list these things so that they come up near the top of internet searches. That's why the site gets so many hits.
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Re: Predictions: Rolling Stone Top 500 Songs update 2021

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:sleeping-sleeping:
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Re: Predictions: Rolling Stone Top 500 Songs update 2021

Post by Henry »

Hymie wrote: Thu Jun 24, 2021 10:44 pm
Henry wrote: Thu Jun 24, 2021 6:32 pm
Hymie wrote: Thu Jun 24, 2021 12:49 pm

Popularity is inherently objective. We have sales figures and chart positions and streams, etc. I break popularity into 2 separate categories, initial popularity and lasting popularity. Initial popularity can be measured objectively by chart positions in various countries.
Very funny Hymie :-)

Objective popularity is a classic oxymoron.

Popularity is quantifiable and measurable, not objective.
Objective meaning it's a fact, not just an opinion. It's a fact that THRILLER was a number one album in the US for 37 weeks. That doesn't change no matter who is reporting on it, as opposed to a subjective opinion such as whether or not Leonard Cohen's music is good.
Hymie, your comment clearly demonstrates your lack of understanding of critical thinking.

Facts are not the intended destination of critical thinking inquiries. Facts do not translate directly to knowledge, but instead are merely data to be presented.

Knowledge requires the use of analytical methods to answer questions for intelligence which results in the formation of insights and formulations that can be applied more broadly to find truth than a single fact. Knowledge then requires reflection to determine whether the insight is sufficiently well founded to enable one to judge that the insight should be used as part of our analytical toolset.
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Re: Predictions: Rolling Stone Top 500 Songs update 2021

Post by Harold »

Henry wrote: Fri Jun 25, 2021 8:23 am Hymie, your comment clearly demonstrates your lack of understanding of critical thinking.

Facts are not the intended destination of critical thinking inquiries. Facts do not translate directly to knowledge, but instead are merely data to be presented.

Knowledge requires the use of analytical methods to answer questions for intelligence which results in the formation of insights and formulations that can be applied more broadly to find truth than a single fact. Knowledge then requires reflection to determine whether the insight is sufficiently well founded to enable one to judge that the insight should be used as part of our analytical toolset.
"Facts don't do what I want them to!" - David Byrne, "Crosseyed and Painless" / Hymie, probably
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Re: Predictions: Rolling Stone Top 500 Songs update 2021

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I'm willing to accept the idea that "objective popularity" is a bit of a fuzzy term (which is to say, how exactly should we measure popularity? album sales over time? peak chart position? monthly Spotify streams?) but it does seem clear to me that one thing can be objectively more popular than the other.

If something is quantifiable and measurable, it is objective. Two yards is objectively longer than one foot. One ton is objectively heavier than one pound. Thriller has objectively sold more albums than any other album worldwide.

So I'm with Hymie on this one.
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Re: Predictions: Rolling Stone Top 500 Songs update 2021

Post by Hymie »

Nick wrote: Fri Jun 25, 2021 1:53 pm I'm willing to accept the idea that "objective popularity" is a bit of a fuzzy term (which is to say, how exactly should we measure popularity? album sales over time? peak chart position? monthly Spotify streams?) but it does seem clear to me that one thing can be objectively more popular than the other.

If something is quantifiable and measurable, it is objective. Two yards is objectively longer than one foot. One ton is objectively heavier than one pound. Thriller has objectively sold more albums than any other album worldwide.

So I'm with Hymie on this one.
Thank you. That's what I am saying. "Objectively" meaning that anyone who asks the question will have the same answer. What was Michael Jackson biggest selling album, as opposed to what was Michael Jackson's best album, which would get a subjective answer that would be different from different people.
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Re: Predictions: Rolling Stone Top 500 Songs update 2021

Post by Jackson »

Nick wrote: Fri Jun 25, 2021 1:53 pm I'm willing to accept the idea that "objective popularity" is a bit of a fuzzy term (which is to say, how exactly should we measure popularity? album sales over time? peak chart position? monthly Spotify streams?) but it does seem clear to me that one thing can be objectively more popular than the other.

If something is quantifiable and measurable, it is objective. Two yards is objectively longer than one foot. One ton is objectively heavier than one pound. Thriller has objectively sold more albums than any other album worldwide.

So I'm with Hymie on this one.
You admit this in your first paragraph, but popularity is difficult to measure as it can change quite a bit over time.

For example Journey's Don't Stop Believin' only peaked at #9 on the Billboard charts at the time of its release, but has gone on to have an incredible lasting popularity and is often cited as the best-selling digital song of all time. What's a more popular song from 1981, Don't Stop Believin' or Kim Carnes' Bette Davis Eyes, which spent the most weeks at #1 on Billboard of any song that year? The Velvet Underground is another example as I said in my last post. Many artists become more commercially successful after they die; Bob Marley being one example.

Also what about bands that differ in popularity by country? Oasis is one of the biggest bands of all time in the UK; in the US most people only know them for Wonderwall. Kate Bush's Wuthering Heights was a top ten hit across Europe but didn't even chart in the US. There are hundreds of other examples.

I'll give you Thriller as an example of something that was hugely globally popular upon its release and has remained popular ever since, but there aren't too many works out there like this.
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Re: Predictions: Rolling Stone Top 500 Songs update 2021

Post by Nick »

Jackson wrote: Fri Jun 25, 2021 3:06 pm
Nick wrote: Fri Jun 25, 2021 1:53 pm I'm willing to accept the idea that "objective popularity" is a bit of a fuzzy term (which is to say, how exactly should we measure popularity? album sales over time? peak chart position? monthly Spotify streams?) but it does seem clear to me that one thing can be objectively more popular than the other.

If something is quantifiable and measurable, it is objective. Two yards is objectively longer than one foot. One ton is objectively heavier than one pound. Thriller has objectively sold more albums than any other album worldwide.

So I'm with Hymie on this one.
You admit this in your first paragraph, but popularity is difficult to measure as it can change quite a bit over time.

For example Journey's Don't Stop Believin' only peaked at #9 on the Billboard charts at the time of its release, but has gone on to have an incredible lasting popularity and is often cited as the best-selling digital song of all time. What's a more popular song from 1981, Don't Stop Believin' or Kim Carnes' Bette Davis Eyes, which spent the most weeks at #1 on Billboard of any song that year? The Velvet Underground is another example as I said in my last post. Many artists become more commercially successful after they die; Bob Marley being one example.

Also what about bands that differ in popularity by country? Oasis is one of the biggest bands of all time in the UK; in the US most people only know them for Wonderwall. Kate Bush's Wuthering Heights was a top ten hit across Europe but didn't even chart in the US. There are hundreds of other examples.

I'll give you Thriller as an example of something that was hugely globally popular upon its release and has remained popular ever since, but there aren't too many works out there like this.
Well I think the distinction here, as far as I see it is this:

1. Distance, weight, length, etc. are objective and easy to measure. All you need is a ruler or scale, for instance.

2. Popularity is objective but hard to measure. Some things ARE more popular than others (The Beatles are more popular than your average no name barroom cover band), but once you get into the finer gradations (are The Who more popular than Led Zeppelin?) then the quality of "popularity" becomes harder and harder to measure.

Which isn't to say that the quality is no longer objective, but if you're defining "popularity" as "the sheer number of people, living and dead, worldwide who approve(d) of a certain artist" then you're going to have a bit of trouble approximating what that number is. That number DOES exist however, and if we were omnipotent we would easily know it. But we aren't, and so we have to use rough standards (peak chart position, album sales, etc.) when calculating it.

In a way it's a bit like determining the number of people who died in some great battle several thousand years ago. The number of people who died in that battle is objective. But because the battle was so long ago, and because the historical records are so weak, and because the archeological evidence is so scant, then we have to use some method of approximation at coming up with the number.

Which is to say that two historical scholars studying this battle could come up with two different numbers of dead and there would be nothing wrong with that. Just like how two people today could come up with two different answers as to whether The Who or Led Zeppelin are more popular. Even if the answer to both issues is objective, our lack of omnipotence means that the issue is still up for debate.
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