Suggest genre changes here

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Henrik
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Suggest genre changes here

Postby Henrik » Sun Aug 23, 2015 8:34 pm

If you want to add or remove a genre for an album on AM, let me know it in this thread. However, I will only change the genres if...

1. The RYM genres (genre votes) are in line with your suggestion, meaning that the genre is listed in bold (primary genre) on RYM. Preferably the votes (only visible to RYM members) are also rather convincing, meaning that there are at least a few more positive than negative votes.

2. The RYM votes are uncertain or somewhat against your suggested genre change, but we get to a consensus here that the change should be made (at least two more people for than against the change).

To increase the chance of a change, I encourage you to vote at RYM before posting your suggestion here.

I have a fear that this thread will be cluttered, so please only suggest a change if it really matters to you and the RYM votes are not (clearly) against you, or if you find an album at RYM where the genre votes have changed over time to a new distinct set of genres. If this thread becomes cluttered anyway, I will probably start a new forum where every suggestion can have its own thread.

Agreed changes will be made in the next site update (next year).
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Re: Suggest genre changes here

Postby Sweepstakes Ron » Sun Aug 23, 2015 9:09 pm

Is there a reason why "regional" hip-hop genres (east coast, west coast, etc.) are not on the site?
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Re: Suggest genre changes here

Postby Henrik » Sun Aug 23, 2015 9:44 pm

Sweepstakes Ron wrote:Is there a reason why "regional" hip-hop genres (east coast, west coast, etc.) are not on the site?

Yes. These genres are based on region rather than sound. There was a 91 yes/26 no vote for merging West Coast Hip Hop into Hip Hop. The change was denied, but I think they just keep things like these as they are because they are working on a new descriptor tree.
https://rateyourmusic.com/admin/queue/hq/profile_details?id=22190&type=h&context=p

There are other regional genres as well, but hip hop albums are usually also listed with several other genres, and I deleted these two genres to make the genre column lighter on the AM pages.

Example:
Public Enemy - It Takes a Nation of Millions to Hold Us Back
Conscious Hip Hop, Hardcore Hip Hop, Political Hip Hop

I don't think East Coast Hip Hop is needed.
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Re: Suggest genre changes here

Postby luney6 » Mon Aug 24, 2015 12:53 pm

Shouldn't albums like the Velvet Underground and Nico, Daydream Nation and Trout Mask Replica, which are listed in the subgenres of rock list also be listed in main rock list?
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Re: Suggest genre changes here

Postby Henrik » Mon Aug 24, 2015 1:28 pm

luney6 wrote:Shouldn't albums like the Velvet Underground and Nico, Daydream Nation and Trout Mask Replica, which are listed in the subgenres of rock list also be listed in main rock list?

Yes they should. I need to take a look at this.
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Re: Suggest genre changes here

Postby Bruno » Tue Aug 25, 2015 12:55 pm

Henrik, recently I started making a new sheet with the songs of the Top Songs, and have classified each with its sub-genres and its main genres, each in a different column. I completed the 5000 songs on the main list. I can send too you, if you want.

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Re: Suggest genre changes here

Postby Henrik » Tue Aug 25, 2015 4:10 pm

Bruno wrote:Henrik, recently I started making a new sheet with the songs of the Top Songs, and have classified each with its sub-genres and its main genres, each in a different column. I completed the 5000 songs on the main list. I can send too you, if you want.

That would be great! I don't know how much I will use it though, as I want to use the same genre tree as for albums (i.e. RYM's genres).
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Re: Suggest genre changes here

Postby Bruno » Tue Aug 25, 2015 4:34 pm

Henrik wrote:
Bruno wrote:Henrik, recently I started making a new sheet with the songs of the Top Songs, and have classified each with its sub-genres and its main genres, each in a different column. I completed the 5000 songs on the main list. I can send too you, if you want.

That would be great! I don't know how much I will use it though, as I want to use the same genre tree as for albums (i.e. RYM's genres).

Okay, I'll translate.

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Re: Suggest genre changes here

Postby Henrik » Tue Aug 25, 2015 4:42 pm

Bruno wrote:
Henrik wrote:
Bruno wrote:Henrik, recently I started making a new sheet with the songs of the Top Songs, and have classified each with its sub-genres and its main genres, each in a different column. I completed the 5000 songs on the main list. I can send too you, if you want.

That would be great! I don't know how much I will use it though, as I want to use the same genre tree as for albums (i.e. RYM's genres).

Okay, I'll translate.

Oh, many thanks for the offer, but what I meant is that I want to use not only the RYM genre tree but also how the singles are voted on at RYM. For album tracks we have to decide ourselves but the RYM genres for the albums in question is probably a good direction.
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Re: Suggest genre changes here

Postby Henrik » Tue Aug 25, 2015 5:47 pm

Maybe you are wondering if I have asked if I can use RYM's genre data. No I haven't. I guess I'm afraid of getting a no. But I'm really trying to make it a winning situation for RYM, with links to RYM on all genre and album pages. I really hope they won't hunt me down.
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Re: Suggest genre changes here

Postby Bruno » Tue Aug 25, 2015 6:16 pm

At the moment I have these songs with genre(s):
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Re: Suggest genre changes here

Postby Sweepstakes Ron » Tue Dec 01, 2015 2:03 am

AM has Saint Etienne's So Tough under Indietronica, but RYM does not.
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Re: Suggest genre changes here

Postby Sweepstakes Ron » Sat Dec 05, 2015 6:33 pm

RYM no longer lists Bob Dylan's self-titled album under Country Blues, though it seems pretty close.
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Re: Suggest genre changes here

Postby Sweepstakes Ron » Mon Dec 07, 2015 12:28 am

RYM just added genre voting for songs. That'll help a lot when song genres are implemented.
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Re: Suggest genre changes here

Postby Henrik » Mon Dec 07, 2015 10:03 am

Sweepstakes Ron wrote:RYM just added genre voting for songs. That'll help a lot when song genres are implemented.

Yes!!!
Good thing I haven't asked for help yet. It's probably wise to wait a year or so until the RYM votes for songs are stable.
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Re: Suggest genre changes here

Postby Sweepstakes Ron » Wed Dec 23, 2015 10:40 pm

"Alternative Singer-Songwriter" is no longer an RYM genre. Let England Shake doesn't even have a primary genre now.
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Re: Suggest genre changes here

Postby jonatan » Tue Nov 14, 2017 9:39 am

I have a technical question about how to download the genres into an excel file.

I am interested in (1) the parent genres of the top 3000 albums. I can access those by clicking on each album, and writing them down. But perhaps there is an easier way?

And (2) genres and parent genres for the top songs. Does that information exist?

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Re: Suggest genre changes here

Postby Henrik » Tue Nov 14, 2017 10:00 am

jonatan wrote:I have a technical question about how to download the genres into an excel file.

I am interested in (1) the parent genres of the top 3000 albums. I can access those by clicking on each album, and writing them down. But perhaps there is an easier way?

And (2) genres and parent genres for the top songs. Does that information exist?

1) I can provide a spreadsheet!
2) No, unfortunately.
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Re: Suggest genre changes here

Postby jonatan » Tue Nov 14, 2017 10:25 am

1) That would be great. (If possible, including the bubbling unders.)

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Re: Suggest genre changes here

Postby StevieFan13 » Tue Nov 14, 2017 6:28 pm

I’d say an easy way to assign genres to songs is to use the same one as their parent album or the rest of their albums (ex: Nevermind is categorized as grunge, so songs like “Smells Like Teen Spirit,” “Polly,” “Lithium,” etc are grunge songs).
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Re: Suggest genre changes here

Postby tfguenther » Wed Nov 15, 2017 7:21 am

I don't want to open Pandora's box or anything, but would you say that "Polly" is 'Grunge' just by listening to the song itself? If I didn't know that it's a Nirvana song (and by that kind of HAS to be Grunge), I wouldn't. As I wouldn't describe "When I'm Sixty-Four" by The Beatles as Psychedelic either...

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Re: Suggest genre changes here

Postby jonatan » Mon Nov 27, 2017 6:24 pm

Is there any news about this?

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Re: Suggest genre changes here

Postby Henrik » Mon Nov 27, 2017 6:29 pm

jonatan wrote:Is there any news about this?

Sorry, I totally forgot about the spreadsheet I promised. Added to my to-do list...
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Re: Suggest genre changes here

Postby BleuPanda » Mon Nov 27, 2017 6:31 pm

StevieFan13 wrote:I’d say an easy way to assign genres to songs is to use the same one as their parent album or the rest of their albums (ex: Nevermind is categorized as grunge, so songs like “Smells Like Teen Spirit,” “Polly,” “Lithium,” etc are grunge songs).


To expand on this, I think this is the easiest first step, and then we pick out the songs that don't actually match the parent album. Use the album as a base and then consider the exceptions instead of overwhelming ourselves with the fact that some won't match up.

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Re: Suggest genre changes here

Postby StevieFan13 » Mon Nov 27, 2017 7:19 pm

BleuPanda wrote:
StevieFan13 wrote:I’d say an easy way to assign genres to songs is to use the same one as their parent album or the rest of their albums (ex: Nevermind is categorized as grunge, so songs like “Smells Like Teen Spirit,” “Polly,” “Lithium,” etc are grunge songs).


To expand on this, I think this is the easiest first step, and then we pick out the songs that don't actually match the parent album. Use the album as a base and then consider the exceptions instead of overwhelming ourselves with the fact that some won't match up.

Right, exactly. So an example would be something like Ultralight Beam, which to me feels closer to R&B than rap.
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Re: Suggest genre changes here

Postby Henrik » Thu Nov 30, 2017 5:34 am

Henrik wrote:
jonatan wrote:I have a technical question about how to download the genres into an excel file.

I am interested in (1) the parent genres of the top 3000 albums. I can access those by clicking on each album, and writing them down. But perhaps there is an easier way?

And (2) genres and parent genres for the top songs. Does that information exist?

1) I can provide a spreadsheet!
2) No, unfortunately.

Here is a spreadsheet of genres and parent genres for all albums on AM.
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Re: Suggest genre changes here

Postby jonatan » Thu Dec 07, 2017 12:47 am

Thank you! Which formula do you use to rank albums of different rank. I recall at some point reading something like
log(log(4 + 4000)) - log(log(4 + rank))

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Re: Suggest genre changes here

Postby Mevansuto » Fri Dec 29, 2017 11:56 am

I think Blackstar by David Bowie should have Jazz-Rock as a subgenre.

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Re: Suggest genre changes here

Postby ordinaryperson » Sat Jan 06, 2018 3:38 am

Radiohead's Amnesiac and Nine Inch Nails' The Fragile should have Art Rock listed as one of their genres like they are on Rate Your Music.
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Re: Suggest genre changes here

Postby Sweepstakes Ron » Fri Feb 22, 2019 3:30 pm

So, in the past several years, RYM has made a lot of changes to the genre tree itself. Since the genre queue on RYM is currently closed, would now be a good time to detail those changes? Regarding genres already listed on AM, that is.
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Re: Suggest genre changes here

Postby Sweepstakes Ron » Sat Mar 09, 2019 7:54 pm

I'm going to list changes to the genre tree in this post, which I will go back and edit until I've gone through all the genres listed on AM. So if I shouldn't be doing this, speak now or forever hold your peace.

New parent genres:
Punk: top level genre
Post-Metal: subgenre of Metal
Post-Industrial: subgenre of Industrial Music
Northeastern African Music: subgenre of African Music
Reductionism: subgenre of Experimental
Psychedelia: top level genre
Central African Music: subgenre of African Music
Surf Music: subgenre of Rock

Acoustic Rock is now a "subgenre" of "Descriptor" as well as Rock
Alternative Singer/Songwriter is no longer a unique subgenre – it has been merged back into its parent genre of Singer/Songwriter
Arabic Folk Music is now a direct subgenre of Arabic Music, rather than of Arabic Traditional Music (and thus, no longer a subgenre of Islamic Modal Music) – it is still a subgenre of Traditional Folk Music
Arabic Traditional Music is no longer a unique subgenre – it has been merged back into its parent genre of Arabic Music
Art Punk is no longer a subgenre of Punk Rock – it is now directly under both Punk and Rock
Atmospheric Sludge Metal is now a subgenre of Post-Metal, as well as Sludge Metal
Berber Music is now a subgenre of North African Music
"Blue Eyed Soul" has been changed to "Blue-Eyed Soul" (with a hyphen)
Boom Bap is a subgenre of Hardcore Hip Hop (it seems that this has always been the case on RYM – was the discrepancy on AM on purpose?)
C86 is now a subgenre of Indie Rock, as well as Indie Pop
Chamber Pop is no longer a subgenre of Baroque Pop
Coldwave is no longer a subgenre of New Wave
Comedy is no longer a "subgenre" of Descriptor, making it a top level genre
Country is now a subgenre of Regional Music, thus no longer a top level genre (this might be subject to change, not necessarily though)
Dance-Punk is now a subgenre of Dance as well as Post-Punk
Dark Ambient is now a subgenre of Post-Industrial as well as Ambient
Dark Jazz is no longer a subgenre of Dark Ambient
"Death Rock" has been changed to "Deathrock" and is now a subgenre of Punk Rock and Gothic Rock, rather than Post-Punk and Gothic Rock
Deep Soul is now a direct subgenre of Soul, rather than Southern Soul
Doo-Wop is no longer a subgenre of Vocal Group
EBM is a now a subgenre of Post-Industrial (as well as Electronic Dance Music) rather than directly under Industrial Music
Electro-Industrial is a now a subgenre of Post-Industrial (as well as Electronic) rather than directly under Industrial Music
Electroacoustic is now a subgenre of Electronic, as well as Experimental
Emo is now a subgenre of Punk, as well as Rock
Ethereal Wave is no longer a subgenre of Gothic Rock
Ethio-Jazz is a now a subgenre of Northeastern African Music (as well as Jazz) rather than directly under African Music
Folk Baroque is no longer a subgenre of English Folk Music
Folk Revival is no longer a unique subgenre – it has been merged back into its parent genre of Contemporary Folk
Freakbeat is now a subgenre of Garage Rock, as well as Beat Music
French Pop is now a "subgenre" of Descriptor, as well as Pop
Funk Metal is now a subgenre of Funk Rock, as well as Alternative Metal
Garifuna Folk Music is a subgenre of Caribbean Folk Music, rather than directly under Caribbean Music (I believe this one may have been a mistake on AM's part)
Glitch Hop is now a direct subgenre of Electronic, rather than IDM
Gothic Rock is now a subgenre of Post-Punk, rather than a direct subgenre of Rock
Industrial Hip Hop is now a subgenre of Post-Industrial (as well as Experimental Hip Hop) rather than directly under Industrial Music
Industrial Metal is now a subgenre of Post-Industrial (as well as Metal) rather than directly under Industrial Music
Industrial Rock is now a subgenre of Post-Industrial (as well as Rock) rather than directly under Industrial Music
Lowercase is now a subgenre of Reductionism, rather than directly under Experimental
Martial Industrial is now a subgenre of Post-Industrial, rather than directly under Industrial Music
Mashup is now a "subgenre" of Descriptor, rather than Plunderphonics
Mbube is no longer a subgenre of A cappella
Musical Parody is now a direct "subgenre" of Descriptor, rather than Musical Comedy
Musique concrète is now a subgenre of Electroacoustic, rather than Tape Music
Neo-Psychedelia is now a direct subgenre of Psychedelia, rather than Psychedelic Rock
Neue Deutsche Welle is now a subgenre of New Wave, rather than directly under Rock
New Romantic is now a subgenre of Pop, as well as New Wave
Orchestral is now a "subgenre" of Descriptor, as well as Western Classical Music
Paisley Underground is no longer a subgenre of Psychedelic Rock; it is now a subgenre of Neo-Psychedelia and Alternative Rock
Plunderphonics is now a direct subgenre of Experimental, rather than Sound Collage
Post-Hardcore is no longer a subgenre of Punk Rock – it is now directly under both Punk and Rock
Post-Punk is now a subgenre of Punk, as well as Rock
Proto-Punk is now a subgenre of Punk, as well as Rock
Psychedelic Folk is now a subgenre of Psychedelia, as well as Contemporary Folk
Psychedelic Pop is now a subgenre of Psychedelia, as well as Pop
Psychedelic Rock is now a subgenre of Psychedelia, as well as Rock
Psychedelic Soul is now a subgenre of Psychedelia, as well as Soul
Punk Rock is now a subgenre of Punk, as well as Rock
Rap Rock is now a direct subgenre of Rock, rather than Alternative Rock
Rock Opera is now a "subgenre" of Descriptor, as well as Rock
Satire is now a direct "subgenre" of Descriptor, rather than Comedy
Shibuya-kei is now a direct subgenre of Pop, rather than J-Pop
Show Tunes is no longer a subgenre of Soundtracks
Soukous is now a subgenre of Central African Music, rather than directly under African Music
Sound Collage is now a direct subgenre of Experimental, rather than Tape Music
Spaghetti Western is now a subgenre of Modern Classical, thus no longer a top level genre
Spoken Word is no longer a "subgenre" of Descriptor, making it a top level genre
Surf Rock is now a subgenre of Surf Music, rather than directly under Rock
Synth Punk is now a direct subgenre of Punk (as well as Electronic), rather than Punk Rock
Tizita is now a subgenre of Northeastern African Music, rather than directly under African Music
Tradi-Modern is now a subgenre of Central African Music, rather than directly under African Music
UK Bass is now a direct subgenre of Electronic Dance Music, rather than UK Garage
"West Coast Rock" has been changed to "Yacht Rock" and is now a subgenre of Pop Rock, rather than directly under Rock
Hip House is no longer a subgenre of Hip Hop
Trap Rap is now a direct subgenre of Hip Hop, rather than Gangsta Rap
Last edited by Sweepstakes Ron on Mon May 20, 2019 9:45 pm, edited 15 times in total.
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Re: Suggest genre changes here

Postby Henrik » Sat Mar 09, 2019 9:45 pm

Sweepstakes Ron, I will be very grateful if you complete this list of changes. However, I can not promise when these changes will be implemented at AM. It requires some work to get everything right with the genres menu, the genre charts and the genre info on the album pages.
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Re: Suggest genre changes here

Postby Sweepstakes Ron » Mon May 20, 2019 9:47 pm

Well, it took me long enough, but I finally found all the changes! Do with this information what you will. In the meantime, I think I might start cross-referencing AM with RYM for this thread's original purpose, that is, finding albums whose genre votes have changed over time.
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Re: Suggest genre changes here

Postby Sweepstakes Ron » Sat Jun 08, 2019 6:37 pm

Sweepstakes Ron wrote:Well, it took me long enough, but I finally found all the changes! Do with this information what you will. In the meantime, I think I might start cross-referencing AM with RYM for this thread's original purpose, that is, finding albums whose genre votes have changed over time.

I changed my mind on this. I feel it's probably not a good idea to do this before the genre tree is updated on AM.
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