IT HAS HAPPENED: Update 2014 Thread

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Bruce
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Re: IT HAS HAPPENED: Update 2014 Thread

Post by Bruce » Thu Jul 31, 2014 4:53 pm

Nassim wrote: Well, since I went to the forum without logging in first, let's answer this blatant intellectual dishonesty :
First things that's written on top of the NME page :
"This is NME’s celebration of the best debut albums from the last 50 years. It's not a countdown. Instead, we've selected one album from each year."
So Led Zeppelin first album is not here because it is considered inferior to the Stooges self titled and Hendrix and the Doors albums because they are considered inferior to the Velvet Underground & Nico, some considerations which are debatable (but supported by many critics) and in any case don't seem much like following any agenda.
Sorry, I did not see that stuff. Still, they should not call it the 50 greatest debut albums if there's a limit of one per year and it only covers the last 50 years.

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Re: IT HAS HAPPENED: Update 2014 Thread

Post by Bruce » Thu Jul 31, 2014 8:25 pm

I just sent the following letter to Robert Hilburn. If I get an answer I will post it here.

Dear Mr. Hilburn:

What is your opinion of Bing Crosby's recording career?

I am currently arguing with a bunch of younger guys who claim that the Sex Pistols are far more significant than Bing Crosby.

What do you think?

Bruce Grossberg
Last edited by Bruce on Thu Jul 31, 2014 9:13 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: IT HAS HAPPENED: Update 2014 Thread

Post by Bruce » Thu Jul 31, 2014 8:51 pm

Got his response already. Here it is.....read it and weep.

I hate it when people say you're comparing oranges and apples to avoid giving a judgment, but it really applies here.

Sex Pistols were immensely important in revitalizing rock in the 1970s...but Bing was probably the most important and influential singer of the first half of the century...He revolutionized singing, creating the "natural," crooning style, partially because he understood the power of the microphone. Before Bing, most singers sang notes and entertained..but bing was an English or literature major in college and he cared about the words.. he sang the words, the meaning... He influenced everyone after him in the 30s and 40s, notably Sinatra, who has often paid debt to him.
So who was more essential in the development of pop music.

Bing , I'd say... plus lots of people more important than pistols in rock...elvis, chuck berry, james brown, the beatles, rolling stones, the who, etc...

so more that I think about it, more confident I am in saying bing was far more important in pop history of the 20th century than the pistols.

bob

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Re: IT HAS HAPPENED: Update 2014 Thread

Post by Henrik » Thu Jul 31, 2014 9:52 pm

Bruce wrote:I am currently arguing with a bunch of younger guys who claim that the Sex Pistols are far more significant than Bing Crosby.
I don't think anyone said that. As usual, we're just upset with your "I am always right" attitude.

If you start every post with "In my humble opinion" you will see that a lot more people will be interested in what you are saying.
Everyone you meet fights a battle you know nothing about. Be kind. Always.

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Re: IT HAS HAPPENED: Update 2014 Thread

Post by Bruce » Thu Jul 31, 2014 9:58 pm

Henrik wrote:
Bruce wrote:I am currently arguing with a bunch of younger guys who claim that the Sex Pistols are far more significant than Bing Crosby.
I don't think anyone said that.
Sure they did:
jdizzle83 wrote: Going back to influence, you must be out of your mind to think that Bing Crosby is more influential culturally and musically than the Sex Pistols.

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Re: IT HAS HAPPENED: Update 2014 Thread

Post by Bruce » Thu Jul 31, 2014 10:02 pm

Henrik wrote:If you start every post with "In my humble opinion" you will see that a lot more people will be interested in what you are saying.
From Christgau's website:

"I figure that a critic ought to have three qualities: interest, and arrogance, and writing ability."

Your site is all about cannonizng the opinions of critics and one of the key characteristics of all great critics is arrogance.
Last edited by Bruce on Thu Jul 31, 2014 10:09 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: IT HAS HAPPENED: Update 2014 Thread

Post by Mattceinicram » Thu Jul 31, 2014 10:07 pm

Bruce wrote:
Henrik wrote:If you start every post with "In my humble opinion" you will see that a lot more people will be interested in what you are saying.
From Christgau's website:

"I figure that a critic ought to have three qualities: interest, and arrogance, and writing ability."

Your site is all about cannonizng the opinions of critics and one of the key characteristics of all great critics is arrogance.
In my humble opinion, I do not find Christgau to be a great critic
Check out my music review blog! Matt and Music! mattandmusic.blogspot.com

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Re: IT HAS HAPPENED: Update 2014 Thread

Post by Andre » Thu Jul 31, 2014 10:11 pm

JimmyJazz wrote: That is until I stumbled upon this wonderful website, which was so diverse, electic, and open to music from all time periods and genres, whether currently or widely popular or not, and was open to holding peaceful, friendly discussions about the different merits of every type and era of music. I thought that this place was like a cultured and intelligent haven...
Nicely written down. My two cents to it:
To be honest, I don't care so much if Nirvana is on spot 2 or 3 or somewhere else. Opinions are subjective anyway, so I don't care about more or less acclaimed or more or less popular.

I like lists and this site shows lists, lists and more bloody lists. But most of all I like this site for the people sharing their opinions and with their thoughts and lists they recommend songs, albums and artists to others. I sometimes wish to enjoy this site even more, but that would mean giving up work and/or some kind of social life. ;)
Last edited by Andre on Thu Jul 31, 2014 10:13 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: IT HAS HAPPENED: Update 2014 Thread

Post by Listyguy » Thu Jul 31, 2014 10:12 pm

Bruce wrote:
Henrik wrote:If you start every post with "In my humble opinion" you will see that a lot more people will be interested in what you are saying.
From Christgau's website:

"I figure that a critic ought to have three qualities: interest, and arrogance, and writing ability."

Your site is all about cannonizng the opinions of critics and one of the key characteristics of all great critics is arrogance.
It's very hard to be arrogant through simply a list. I rarely read pretentious reviews of music.

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Re: IT HAS HAPPENED: Update 2014 Thread

Post by slick » Thu Jul 31, 2014 10:31 pm

In my humble opinion this debate has run it's course...

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Re: IT HAS HAPPENED: Update 2014 Thread

Post by Romain » Fri Aug 01, 2014 5:18 am

Bruce wrote:Got his response already. Here it is.....read it and weep.

I hate it when people say you're comparing oranges and apples to avoid giving a judgment, but it really applies here.

Sex Pistols were immensely important in revitalizing rock in the 1970s...but Bing was probably the most important and influential singer of the first half of the century...He revolutionized singing, creating the "natural," crooning style, partially because he understood the power of the microphone. Before Bing, most singers sang notes and entertained..but bing was an English or literature major in college and he cared about the words.. he sang the words, the meaning... He influenced everyone after him in the 30s and 40s, notably Sinatra, who has often paid debt to him.
So who was more essential in the development of pop music.

Bing , I'd say... plus lots of people more important than pistols in rock...elvis, chuck berry, james brown, the beatles, rolling stones, the who, etc...

so more that I think about it, more confident I am in saying bing was far more important in pop history of the 20th century than the pistols.

bob
Dear Mr. Bruce, I just want to say I just went searching in the internent if this absolutely international famous man is a black or a white man, because I never see any photo or video or show of this so famous man in my life (I'm 38)... for your information... he is white.

Can you transmit this incredible information to this guy... Robert Hilburn... whoever he is. Thank you.


P.S. : Again, you do not understand anything in the discussion of these last days. Goodbye.

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Re: IT HAS HAPPENED: Update 2014 Thread

Post by Bruce » Fri Aug 01, 2014 5:29 am

Romain wrote:Can you transmit this incredible information to this guy... Robert Hilburn... whoever he is.
He's one of the most famous music critics in history.

Robert Hilburn (born September 25, 1939) is a pop music critic and author. As critic and music editor at the Los Angeles Times from 1970 to 2005, his reviews, essays and profiles have appeared in publications around the world. Hilburn's memoir, “Corn Flakes with John Lennon (And Other Tales from a Rock ‘n’ Roll Life)” was published on Oct. 13, 2009 by Rodale. He is a member of the nominating committee of the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame and lives in Los Angeles.

Hilburn began working at the Los Angeles Times in 1969, replacing Pete Johnson as rock critic in 1970. While at the Times, Hilburn accompanied several artists on tour, including Johnny Cash for his landmark Folsom Prison concert, Elton John's inaugural visit to Russia, Paul Simon's “Graceland” tour stop in Zimbabwe, and Bob Dylan's first concert swing through Israel. He spent a week on the road with the Sex Pistols during their first U.S. tour. At the Times, Hilburn wrote about the new pop culture movements of punk, techno and rap.

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Re: IT HAS HAPPENED: Update 2014 Thread

Post by Romain » Fri Aug 01, 2014 7:33 am

Bruce wrote:
Romain wrote:Can you transmit this incredible information to this guy... Robert Hilburn... whoever he is.
He's one of the most famous music critics in history.

Robert Hilburn (born September 25, 1939) is a pop music critic and author. As critic and music editor at the Los Angeles Times from 1970 to 2005, his reviews, essays and profiles have appeared in publications around the world. Hilburn's memoir, “Corn Flakes with John Lennon (And Other Tales from a Rock ‘n’ Roll Life)” was published on Oct. 13, 2009 by Rodale. He is a member of the nominating committee of the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame and lives in Los Angeles.
But but...all the critics are useless... so, Robert Hilburn is the most famous useless man in history... no ?

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Re: IT HAS HAPPENED: Update 2014 Thread

Post by Bruce » Fri Aug 01, 2014 4:01 pm

Romain wrote: But but...all the critics are useless
They seem to be pretty useful to most members of this forum. Most of you like the songs and albums that the critics have told you to like best.

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Re: IT HAS HAPPENED: Update 2014 Thread

Post by Nick » Fri Aug 01, 2014 8:42 pm

Bruce wrote:
Romain wrote: But but...all the critics are useless
They seem to be pretty useful to most members of this forum. Most of you like the songs and albums that the critics have told you to like best.
I'm not really sure if it's so much "people on this forum blindly follow critics" as "people on this forum are exposed mainly to the type of music critics like". There's an important distinction.

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Re: IT HAS HAPPENED: Update 2014 Thread

Post by Bruce » Fri Aug 01, 2014 9:56 pm

Nick wrote:"people on this forum are exposed mainly to the type of music critics like".
That implies that this is not because of their own doing.

It's probably more like ""people on this forum are mainly only interested in checking out the type of music critics like".

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Re: IT HAS HAPPENED: Update 2014 Thread

Post by Romain » Sat Aug 02, 2014 8:17 am

Bruce wrote:Got his response already. Here it is.....read it and weep.

I hate it when people say you're comparing oranges and apples to avoid giving a judgment, but it really applies here.

Sex Pistols were immensely important in revitalizing rock in the 1970s...but Bing was probably the most important and influential singer of the first half of the century...He revolutionized singing, creating the "natural," crooning style, partially because he understood the power of the microphone. Before Bing, most singers sang notes and entertained..but bing was an English or literature major in college and he cared about the words.. he sang the words, the meaning... He influenced everyone after him in the 30s and 40s, notably Sinatra, who has often paid debt to him.
So who was more essential in the development of pop music.

Bing , I'd say... plus lots of people more important than pistols in rock...elvis, chuck berry, james brown, the beatles, rolling stones, the who, etc...

so more that I think about it, more confident I am in saying bing was far more important in pop history of the 20th century than the pistols.

bob
Yes, but with this : "Critics don't have any better taste than anybody else" Bruce (01/08/2014), why should we be interested in what this guy says.


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Re: IT HAS HAPPENED: Update 2014 Thread

Post by irreduciblekoan » Tue Aug 05, 2014 9:35 pm

Late observation, but I'm VERY surprised that Family of the Year's beautiful hit single "Hero" didn't make it to AM even as a bubbler, despite there now being 6,000 songs! This song was featured very touchingly in the film Boyhood by the way, which was what made me look up its position (or lack thereof) here. It was a fairly big hit around Europe and in the US.

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Re: IT HAS HAPPENED: Update 2014 Thread

Post by DocBrown » Fri Aug 08, 2014 5:12 pm

irreduciblekoan wrote:Late observation, but I'm VERY surprised that Family of the Year's beautiful hit single "Hero" didn't make it to AM even as a bubbler, despite there now being 6,000 songs! This song was featured very touchingly in the film Boyhood by the way, which was what made me look up its position (or lack thereof) here. It was a fairly big hit around Europe and in the US.
Dammit, irreduciblekoan, now I'm hearing this damn song everywhere I go, two days ago on random shuffle, this morning at my coffeeshop, in the car on the way home...

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Re: IT HAS HAPPENED: Update 2014 Thread

Post by Henry » Sat Aug 09, 2014 2:30 am

peteevans wrote:Very surprised and disappointed to see Steely Dan drop like a stone from 71 to 115. When you look at some of the acts that are above them this adds to the dismay as far as I am concerned. No one will ever convince me they are now only regarded ax the 115th best popular music act of all time, especially when the likes of Rolling Stone magazine had Becker and Fagen in its top ten songwriter team list of all time.
As part of that drop it would be interesting to understand how Reeling In the Years dropped from 477 all the way to 901. I'm clearly not down with that.

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Re: IT HAS HAPPENED: Update 2014 Thread

Post by Sweepstakes Ron » Sat Aug 09, 2014 2:41 am

Henry wrote:
peteevans wrote:Very surprised and disappointed to see Steely Dan drop like a stone from 71 to 115. When you look at some of the acts that are above them this adds to the dismay as far as I am concerned. No one will ever convince me they are now only regarded ax the 115th best popular music act of all time, especially when the likes of Rolling Stone magazine had Becker and Fagen in its top ten songwriter team list of all time.
As part of that drop it would be interesting to understand how Reeling In the Years dropped from 477 all the way to 901. I'm clearly not down with that.
Reeling In The Years did not appear on any new lists that were added in this update, so I guess it just lost momentum by not gaining anything. I certainly wasn't expecting a drop that precipitous, though. It may have something to do with the weight of certain lists changing.
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Re: IT HAS HAPPENED: Update 2014 Thread

Post by Henry » Sat Aug 09, 2014 2:46 am

Sweepstakes Ron wrote:
Henry wrote:
peteevans wrote:Very surprised and disappointed to see Steely Dan drop like a stone from 71 to 115. When you look at some of the acts that are above them this adds to the dismay as far as I am concerned. No one will ever convince me they are now only regarded ax the 115th best popular music act of all time, especially when the likes of Rolling Stone magazine had Becker and Fagen in its top ten songwriter team list of all time.
As part of that drop it would be interesting to understand how Reeling In the Years dropped from 477 all the way to 901. I'm clearly not down with that.
Reeling In The Years did not appear on any new lists that were added in this update, so I guess it just lost momentum by not gaining anything. I certainly wasn't expecting a drop that precipitous, though. It may have something to do with the weight of certain lists changing.
So, I think that there were very few if any lists that concentrated on the 1970's if RITY was completely left off of new lists. Seems like a shame that the decade was short-changed. If my surmise is correct, then I wonder why so few lists for the 1970's were included in the update.

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Re: IT HAS HAPPENED: Update 2014 Thread

Post by Pierre » Sat Aug 09, 2014 6:45 am

It also has to do with the fact that some high names in English-speaking countries, such as The Byrds, Steely Dan, Elvis Costello, Pavement, Wilco or most acts of the Indie scene are much less acclaimed in other countries. In Gilles Verlant's list of 3000 rock classics that I posted a few years ago, "Reelin' in the Years" and three more Dan numbers were actually included, but knowing my French critics I was surprised they were in at all.

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