AMF Favorite Books Poll: Discussion Thread

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Listyguy
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AMF Favorite Books Poll: Discussion Thread

Post by Listyguy »

So we may finally have a favorite novels/books poll here on AM. Before it starts though, there are some details we should work out:
  • How long should the poll stay open for? (I"m thinking many months if not a full year)
  • Minimum number of books on submitted lists
  • How should series and trilogies be handled?
  • What types of literature should be eligible?
If there are any burning questions on your mind that I missed, please point them out so we can establish rules for them beforehand!
Henry
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Re: AMF Favorite Books Poll: Discussion Thread

Post by Henry »

My thoughts include:

A poll duration of 2-6 months should be long enough for the poll to stay open.
Alternatively, if you have a minimum participation number in mind, perhaps reaching that minimum number of participants should be the trigger point for you to announce that the poll will be closing within a month or two.

You may want to specify either fiction or non-fiction, e.g., run two polls.

a ten book minimum seems a bit low, but could help you have more participants. You should specify how many books (maximum) will be used for the results.

Folks may want to look at the following site for additional information regarding some of the most respected books of all time: http://thegreatestbooks.org/
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Re: AMF Favorite Books Poll: Discussion Thread

Post by DaveC »

I will definitely participate.

Preferences:
Separate fiction from non-fiction.
Series/trilogies - treat as one combined entry only. i.e. Harry Potter Series, A Song of Ice & Fire, etc.
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veganvalentine
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Re: AMF Favorite Books Poll: Discussion Thread

Post by veganvalentine »

I've browsed the thegreatestbooks.org before, but it's compiled from 107 lists, which is paltry compared to AM and They Shoot Pictures. Are those really all the book lists? Considering the printing press predates recorded music and movies by centuries, it's a little disappointing. Perhaps books just take too long to read or literature critics aren't as interested in all-time lists?
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bonnielaurel
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Re: AMF Favorite Books Poll: Discussion Thread

Post by bonnielaurel »

Good idea to have a book poll. I would prefer to exclude non-fiction and religious books. Plays could be included.

Books that belong to a series should in most cases be treated separately, but there should be an exception for trilogies and other multi-part works that are conceived as a whole. E.g. A la recherche du temps perdu, the New York Trilogy and Lord of the Rings should count as one book.

Short story collections that were conceived as a whole should count as one book, e.g. Dubliners by James Joyce. However for someone like Edgar Allan Poe I would prefer to see one short story as an individual work.
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Listyguy
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Re: AMF Favorite Books Poll: Discussion Thread

Post by Listyguy »

Henry wrote: A poll duration of 2-6 months should be long enough for the poll to stay open.
Alternatively, if you have a minimum participation number in mind, perhaps reaching that minimum number of participants should be the trigger point for you to announce that the poll will be closing within a month or two.

a ten book minimum seems a bit low, but could help you have more participants. You should specify how many books (maximum) will be used for the results.
My reasoning for keeping the poll open longer is that so those voting (myself included) have more time to read beforehand. On the minimum number of books, I was thinking either 10, 15, or 20. 10 would certainly open the door for more votes, so I think that might be what we go with (still tentative though). In terms of a maximum that will count for the final results, I imagine 100 would be sufficient, unless others disagree.
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Listyguy
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Re: AMF Favorite Books Poll: Discussion Thread

Post by Listyguy »

Based on everyone's feedback so far, here's what I have in terms of what would be eligible and ineligible:

Eligible:
-Fiction novels
-Short story collections
-Plays
-Epics

Ineligible:
-Nonfiction books
-Religious texts

To be determined:
-Series of books

Right now I'm leaning towards counting series as one entity, as I feel like the series that would likely find their way onto a lot of lists (such as LOTR) are generally considered a single entity.
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Re: AMF Favorite Books Poll: Discussion Thread

Post by Nick »

I'm very interested in this poll. Books are pretty tough to do though. Really tough in fact. It takes you about 45 minutes to consume the average album and 2 hours to consume the average movie. But even a relatively short book can take a couple days to read. Some 1,000 page behemoth? Could take a couple of months. I'm guessing that's why "best of" lists for books aren't all too common. You can get through the top 100 greatest albums on AM in a year easily. Good luck getting through the top 100 books on TGB. "Don Quixote", "Ulysses", "Moby-Dick", and "Crime in Punishment" in a year? Plus 96 other books? Even Harold Bloom doesn't read that much. I'd love to read "In Search of Lost Time" someday, but I'll have to clear a solid couple months to go so. If not more.

Anyway, that's why I think it's so crucial that the "window" for submissions for this type of poll be left open so long, a couple months or so, and that people should be heavily encouraged to post their lists early and update them as the months go by, so that you can get recommendations from other forum members and read some of their favorites that you haven't read before posting your final list.

As for what type of works are allowed, I think that it should be limited to fiction, or that non-fiction and fiction have separate polls. After that, I don't think plays should be allowed (as they're primarily meant to be performed, not really read). I'm okay with short story collections being allowed as well. I also think that series should be combined into a single entry. I wouldn't want a mega-fan of George R.R. Martin to list the top 5 spots on their list as the Song of Ice and Fire books when the 2 through 5 spots could be taken up by equally deserving books.
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Re: AMF Favorite Books Poll: Discussion Thread

Post by Henry »

veganvalentine wrote:I've browsed the thegreatestbooks.org before, but it's compiled from 107 lists, which is paltry compared to AM and They Shoot Pictures. Are those really all the book lists? Considering the printing press predates recorded music and movies by centuries, it's a little disappointing. Perhaps books just take too long to read or literature critics aren't as interested in all-time lists?
Please share a source of data that you consider superior to the one offered.
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Re: AMF Favorite Books Poll: Discussion Thread

Post by Nick »

Also, there's the question of novellas. I don't think standalone short stories should count for this poll, but I would really like to see novellas like "The Metamorphosis" or "Of Mice and Men" allowed in.
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bonnielaurel
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Re: AMF Favorite Books Poll: Discussion Thread

Post by bonnielaurel »

For short story writers like Edgar Allan Poe and Anton Chekhov I would suggest that their collected short stories count as one book. Poe's short stories have been published in one volume, those of Chekhov in four volumes. That way we don't have to compare a 10 page story to a trilogy of over 2000 pages.

Novellas are no problem, e.g. The Old Man and the Sea or H. G. Wells' The Time Machine.

If you want to exclude plays that's fine with me. I was only going to include two or three of them, and they're hard to compare indeed.

I'm going to work on a list of recommendations.
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Re: AMF Favorite Books Poll: Discussion Thread

Post by Listyguy »

I personally would like to include plays, especially Shakespeare, in our lists. They can certainty be read closely enough to the way a book is read that their inclusion wouldn't be ridiculous. Most all time lists that I've seen include them as well.
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Re: AMF Favorite Books Poll: Discussion Thread

Post by notbrianeno »

I'm all for this, we should also probably start the official list thread soon as well, so that those of us who received gift cards for Christmas can use them on potential new favorites
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Re: AMF Favorite Books Poll: Discussion Thread

Post by Listyguy »

notbrianeno wrote:I'm all for this, we should also probably start the official list thread soon as well, so that those of us who received gift cards for Christmas can use them on potential new favorites
Agreed...I'll probably start an official thread in the next day or two.
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Re: AMF Favorite Books Poll: Discussion Thread

Post by Listyguy »

I have started a recommendation thread here and will open up the official voting thread in a few days, after Christmas is over.

Additionally, I was thinking of using this formula for tabulating lists:
100*(1+50)/(position+50)

It's been used before and seems to always be a favorite, so I'll probably go with it unless there are any major objections.
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Re: AMF Favorite Books Poll: Discussion Thread

Post by whuntva »

I want to nominate Watchmen and The Sandman so bad. Alas, Graphic Novels are not eligible.

The general rule of thumb is "graphic novel is a comic book as thick as a novel." But I really want to include them.
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Re: AMF Favorite Books Poll: Discussion Thread

Post by Greg »

Would definitely prefer multiple polls - one for novels, one for short stories, plays, poems, etc. Would even like to see the results of era-specific polls - 20th century novels, or 1900-1949, e.g. Including plays, novels and short stories all in one poll seems a bit odd.
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Re: AMF Favorite Books Poll: Discussion Thread

Post by letmeintomyzone »

whuntva wrote:I want to nominate Watchmen and The Sandman so bad. Alas, Graphic Novels are not eligible.

The general rule of thumb is "graphic novel is a comic book as thick as a novel." But I really want to include them.
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Re: AMF Favorite Books Poll: Discussion Thread

Post by letmeintomyzone »

whuntva wrote:I want to nominate Watchmen and The Sandman so bad. Alas, Graphic Novels are not eligible.

The general rule of thumb is "graphic novel is a comic book as thick as a novel." But I really want to include them.
I always thought a "best comics of all time" poll would be extremely cool, but AM doesn't really care for comics.
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Re: AMF Favorite Books Poll: Discussion Thread

Post by Petri »

Listyguy wrote:I have started a recommendation thread here and will open up the official voting thread in a few days, after Christmas is over.

Additionally, I was thinking of using this formula for tabulating lists:
100*(1+50)/(position+50)

It's been used before and seems to always be a favorite, so I'll probably go with it unless there are any major objections.
Great to have a books poll. Thanks for taking care of it Listyguy. I will send some recommendations (probably top 50+) pretty soon (in January) at recommendation thread.

About the formula. I don't think it's the best one for this poll.
If we use 100*(1+50)/(position+50)-formula it means that #1 gets 100 points, #50 51 points and #100 34 points. So if some book gets two #50 votes it will get more points than someones #1 book (and same with 3 #100 votes against one #1 vote). So it's practically which books are in most of the lists -poll (the good books everyone has read will dominate). I would use something like 100*(1+10)/(positioin+10) where #1 gets 100 points, #50 18,3 points (about six #50 votes = 1 #1 vote) and (ten #100 votes = 1 #1 vote). Or even formula 100*(1+5)/(position+5).

letmeintomyzone wrote:
whuntva wrote:I want to nominate Watchmen and The Sandman so bad. Alas, Graphic Novels are not eligible.

The general rule of thumb is "graphic novel is a comic book as thick as a novel." But I really want to include them.
I always thought a "best comics of all time" poll would be extremely cool, but AM doesn't really care for comics.
I am a huge fan of comic books/graphic novels and would definitely paricipate if someone would host it. I still think we should have separate poll for them (and maybe at least two separate polls for them too).
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Re: AMF Favorite Books Poll: Discussion Thread

Post by Jeff »

Petri wrote:About the formula. I don't think it's the best one for this poll.
If we use 100*(1+50)/(position+50)-formula it means that #1 gets 100 points, #50 51 points and #100 34 points. So if some book gets two #50 votes it will get more points than someones #1 book (and same with 3 #100 votes against one #1 vote). So it's practically which books are in most of the lists -poll (the good books everyone has read will dominate). I would use something like 100*(1+10)/(positioin+10) where #1 gets 100 points, #50 18,3 points (about six #50 votes = 1 #1 vote) and (ten #100 votes = 1 #1 vote). Or even formula 100*(1+5)/(position+5).
I agree with this. I hate it when something lots of people like but no one loves ends up with an inflated ranking because of it.
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Re: AMF Favorite Books Poll: Discussion Thread

Post by Listyguy »

Petri wrote:
Listyguy wrote:I have started a recommendation thread here and will open up the official voting thread in a few days, after Christmas is over.

Additionally, I was thinking of using this formula for tabulating lists:
100*(1+50)/(position+50)

It's been used before and seems to always be a favorite, so I'll probably go with it unless there are any major objections.
Great to have a books poll. Thanks for taking care of it Listyguy. I will send some recommendations (probably top 50+) pretty soon (in January) at recommendation thread.

About the formula. I don't think it's the best one for this poll.
If we use 100*(1+50)/(position+50)-formula it means that #1 gets 100 points, #50 51 points and #100 34 points. So if some book gets two #50 votes it will get more points than someones #1 book (and same with 3 #100 votes against one #1 vote). So it's practically which books are in most of the lists -poll (the good books everyone has read will dominate). I would use something like 100*(1+10)/(positioin+10) where #1 gets 100 points, #50 18,3 points (about six #50 votes = 1 #1 vote) and (ten #100 votes = 1 #1 vote). Or even formula 100*(1+5)/(position+5).
This is fair. 100*(1+10)/(position+10) seems like a good median, or maybe 100*(1+15)/(position+15), because I do want everyone's top 10 to have some value. Under the pos+10, #10 gets 55 vs. getting 64 under the pos+15. With the pos+15, you'd need 4 #50s to match a #1. I'd like to hear more opinions though!
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Re: AMF Favorite Books Poll: Discussion Thread

Post by luney6 »

What about poem books, like Leaves of Grass, or Self portrait in a convex mirror? And what about unpublished copies a friend may have sent?
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Re: AMF Favorite Books Poll: Discussion Thread

Post by Listyguy »

luney6 wrote:What about poem books, like Leaves of Grass, or Self portrait in a convex mirror? And what about unpublished copies a friend may have sent?
The poetry collections of categorize with the short story collections as legal. The unpublished work, assuming it fits one of the legal categories, is also eligible I suppose. Obviously it would only be on your list.
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Re: AMF Favorite Books Poll: Discussion Thread

Post by luney6 »

Listyguy wrote:
luney6 wrote:What about poem books, like Leaves of Grass, or Self portrait in a convex mirror? And what about unpublished copies a friend may have sent?
The poetry collections of categorize with the short story collections as legal. The unpublished work, assuming it fits one of the legal categories, is also eligible I suppose. Obviously it would only be on your list.
Well, alright. Thank!
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Re: AMF Favorite Books Poll: Discussion Thread

Post by Nick »

Listyguy wrote:Based on everyone's feedback so far, here's what I have in terms of what would be eligible and ineligible:

Eligible:
-Fiction novels
-Short story collections
-Plays
-Epics

Ineligible:
-Nonfiction books
-Religious texts

To be determined:
-Series of books

Right now I'm leaning towards counting series as one entity, as I feel like the series that would likely find their way onto a lot of lists (such as LOTR) are generally considered a single entity.
I've seen some people express dismay that graphic novels aren't allowed, but I can't find any word from you on whether they are or not. I'd really like to include "Watchmen" on my list, but if they aren't allowed then so be it. (For what it's worth I think they should be allowed. TIME magazine included "Watchmen" on their list of the top 100 novels of the past century or so, and that's good enough for me.)
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Re: AMF Favorite Books Poll: Discussion Thread

Post by Listyguy »

Nick wrote:
Listyguy wrote:Based on everyone's feedback so far, here's what I have in terms of what would be eligible and ineligible:

Eligible:
-Fiction novels
-Short story collections
-Plays
-Epics

Ineligible:
-Nonfiction books
-Religious texts

To be determined:
-Series of books

Right now I'm leaning towards counting series as one entity, as I feel like the series that would likely find their way onto a lot of lists (such as LOTR) are generally considered a single entity.
I've seen some people express dismay that graphic novels aren't allowed, but I can't find any word from you on whether they are or not. I'd really like to include "Watchmen" on my list, but if they aren't allowed then so be it. (For what it's worth I think they should be allowed. TIME magazine included "Watchmen" on their list of the top 100 novels of the past century or so, and that's good enough for me.)
I'd be lying if I acted like I had any knowledge on graphic novels. I'll allow them if everyone thinks they're novels or something close to it.
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