Do you think comic books are a valid medium of artistic expression?

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Your opinion?

Yes
17
94%
No
1
6%
 
Total votes: 18

letmeintomyzone
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Do you think comic books are a valid medium of artistic expression?

Post by letmeintomyzone »

I noticed that a lot of people don't really look at comics, as a valid form of artistic expression, at least, compared to other mediums, such as books, films, and albums. A lot of people dismiss it, or ignore it. Even mediums that have strived for artistic expression like videogames and television, have gotten more measure of respect than comic books. I notice that, you have stuff like Watchmen or Maus, that gets a lot of acclaim and namedropping, but not a lot of people are willing to delve into the world of comics.
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Pierre
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Re: Do you think comic books are a valid medium of artistic expression?

Post by Pierre »

Actually, it's a difficult situation to imagine from continental Europe. Over here, comic books are a huge market and extremely studied approach of artistic expression. As of today, there are dozens, perhaps hundreds of releases studying the art and authors of comic books each year.
letmeintomyzone
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Re: Do you think comic books are a valid medium of artistic expression?

Post by letmeintomyzone »

Pierre wrote:Actually, it's a difficult situation to imagine from continental Europe. Over here, comic books are a huge market and extremely studied approach of artistic expression. As of today, there are dozens, perhaps hundreds of releases studying the art and authors of comic books each year.
I'm working on a "acclaim" site (something like these sites: viewtopic.php?f=8&t=3976) for comics, although, due to wanting to get straight to the point, it's going to be only top 250, which I think is the upper echelon of the acclaim. I'm trying to get into more comics, but due to the nature of how it's published, with a lot of stuff having to recollected decades later, I feel frustrated with following the medium.
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luney6
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Re: Do you think comic books are a valid medium of artistic expression?

Post by luney6 »

letmeintomyzone wrote:I noticed that a lot of people don't really look at comics, as a valid form of artistic expression, at least, compared to other mediums, such as books, films, and albums. A lot of people dismiss it, or ignore it. Even mediums that have strived for artistic expression like videogames and television, have gotten more measure of respect than comic books. I notice that, you have stuff like Watchmen or Maus, that gets a lot of acclaim and namedropping, but not a lot of people are willing to delve into the world of comics.
Generally, the problem lies not with the medium, but with the artists.
"God grant me the serenity to accept things I cannot change, the courage to change the things I can, and the wisdom to know the difference."
Jirin
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Re: Do you think comic books are a valid medium of artistic expression?

Post by Jirin »

Are we talking graphic novels or comic books? I think graphic novels are absolutely a valid form of artistic expression but I think so far they've mostly gotten used to show guys with supernatural talents beating up bad guys. I know there are some big exceptions like Maus and I believe that once perception of the medium changes there will be an explosion. But first people who care about the medium will have to fight to change the perception that graphic novels are just about superheroes.

Manga is farther along in the process.
DocBrown
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Re: Do you think comic books are a valid medium of artistic expression?

Post by DocBrown »

Jirin wrote:Are we talking graphic novels or comic books? I think graphic novels are absolutely a valid form of artistic expression but I think so far they've mostly gotten used to show guys with supernatural talents beating up bad guys. I know there are some big exceptions like Maus...
As a pretty dedicated collector of graphic novels with nary a superhero title in sight I gotta disagree.
In addition to Maus, there's

Sandman
Y the Last Man
Scott Pilgrim
Saga
Fables
100 Bullets

And one shots like

Black Orchid
Neverwhere (is it obvious I'm a Gaiman fan)
Seconds
V for Vendetta
Etc etc.

I almost think the most acclaimed graphic novels are distinctive for the absence of capes and tights. Even in the case of Watchmen the superhero identities are used primarily as a plot device.
Jirin
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Re: Do you think comic books are a valid medium of artistic expression?

Post by Jirin »

The only ones of those I'm familiar with (from the movies) are Scott Pilgrim and V for Vendetta, and while they aren't about superheroes they're still about good guys beating up bad guys. Which is my point, the medium is viewed as being for genre fiction only. I'm not saying I agree with that perspective, but it's what most people see. Film didn't begin to be respected as an artistic medium until it had a few high profile films like Grand Illusion which could tell intellectually engaging stories without the trappings of genre and formula.

Hell, the genre is just past a century old and it's still seen by some as being only for light entertainment. It'll be a while before a much younger medium gains respect outside its niche.
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Re: Do you think comic books are a valid medium of artistic expression?

Post by Nassim »

In France and Belgium you have "bande-dessinées" for any genre that movies cover too : westerns, documentaries, political pamphlets, love stories, comedies, porn, biographies, science-fiction, horror... and it has its very revered and taken seriously festivals and awards, it even has its own museums and Bilal got an expo in Le Louvre and Crumb in Paris museum of modern art
It's usually called "the 9th art" nowadays, it's not as revered as the 7 main arts, a lot of it being targeted at kids, but it is still well respected and for sure considered a valid art medium.

My girlfriend is an American Art History teacher whose researches usually are around the perception of American culture in France, she organized a 2 days symposium on western culture in France and 2 searchers have submitted talks on the cowboys in the French & Belgian bande-dessinées, so it shows it's even studied by academics.
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Re: Do you think comic books are a valid medium of artistic expression?

Post by Jirin »

Genre work can be serious art, but in my mind to be put on the same level as great film or great literature it needs some great contemplative works, not just expository. It needs to be able to tell stories about the human condition and make profound statements about the experience of a normal person. If such comic books exist, I'd like to know why they don't get the critical exposure of the great works of other media and I'd like to hear recs.
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Romain
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Re: Do you think comic books are a valid medium of artistic expression?

Post by Romain »

I agree with Nassim. With this medium, you have a huge difference of appreciation between the Comics, the Bande-dessinées and the manga. It's almost three different "arts". Maybe I'm wrong but I think the BD is a lot more for adults.

And Jirin, of course they exist ! Try some Bande-dessinées..... I don't know....Blast for example by Manu Larcenet, it's exacly what you want:" stories about the human condition and make profound statements about the experience of a normal person".
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luney6
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Re: Do you think comic books are a valid medium of artistic expression?

Post by luney6 »

Jirin wrote:Genre work can be serious art, but in my mind to be put on the same level as great film or great literature it needs some great contemplative works, not just expository. It needs to be able to tell stories about the human condition and make profound statements about the experience of a normal person. If such comic books exist, I'd like to know why they don't get the critical exposure of the great works of other media and I'd like to hear recs.
Completely agree with this. While I haven't read too many comic books, the ones I have were undoubtedly lacking.
"God grant me the serenity to accept things I cannot change, the courage to change the things I can, and the wisdom to know the difference."
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Pierre
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Re: Do you think comic books are a valid medium of artistic expression?

Post by Pierre »

I come from a family who has been loving comics for two generations, and I must say that I’ve been hurt by the fact that this topic was even a thing. To question the validity of comics as an art expression is baffling to my eyes. This is a debate we had in Europe in the 1950s-1960s! Today the Angoulême international comics festival is perceived as one of the most prestigious cultural events in Europe, up there with the Deauville festival. I own several books about comics and one of them has numbers on the highest amounts intervening during auctions, here are some: more than 760.000€ for an original page by Hergé. Around 320.000€ for an album cover by André Franquin. 312.491€ for a page by Albert Uderzo. More than 300.000€ for a Corto Maltese page by Hugo Pratt. 380.000$ for an EC Weird cover by Frank Frazetta. Around 175.500€ for paintings by Enki Bilal. Some of these amounts are crazy, and even the author of the book acknowledges that they are too high, but it still demonstrates that this art is perceived very seriously.
I have another book (precisely titled The Art of Comics) which features a long bibliography of essays and articles about comics, and it features about 300 of them, classified in the following topics: 1. Epistemology, semiotics, pedagogy of/through comics, 2. Dictionaries, encyclopaedias, bibliographies, 3. Historical approach, exhibition catalogues and generalities, 4. Geographical approach, 5. Juridical and political approach, comics and society, 6. Esthetical approach (arts and comics, comics genres) and 7. Some monographs and revues, about authors and works, interviews with the authors. I think that’s enough to demonstrate that comics are considered to both have an impact on and reflect the society of today.
As far as artistic qualities are concerned, I can ensure you that here in Europe there are lots of revues talking at length about how Hergé and Edgar P. Jacobs helped comics (at least European) reach their modern age in terms of narration, how André Franquin was a master of movement and blacks and managed to translate an energy in his comics that no other author reached, or how Italian artist Hugo Pratt fused an unparalleled mastery of atmospherics with his skills as an adventure storyteller. Serbian author Enki Bilal, who paints his comics ever since the late 70s, uses the blue colour in ways that no one else does. In one of my books, they say that the Bilal blue is second in fame only to the Klein blue!
May I need to remind people that comics can translate narratives in experimental ways that neither novels nor cinema can? Just read some of the more experimental comics like Jimmy Corrigan or 99 Ways to Tell a Story: Exercises in Style if you need to be convinced.
Anyway, I’ve spent the last month copying some lists of comics to read from my books if you’re interested enough to start an exploration. You’ll find them in the following topic, I hope you will have fun!:

viewtopic.php?f=8&t=4112
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