Films of the 1990s: Top 150 movies of 1990s FINAL RESULTS

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Re: Films of the 1990s: Top 150 movies of 1990s FINAL RESULTS

Postby bootsy » Tue Mar 21, 2017 5:10 pm

Petri wrote:
bootsy wrote:Petri, I just want to apologize for being disrespectful to you and your hard work on this and even if you don't think it was hard work I want to give you that credit. I honestly didn't mean to come off that way to anyone in here and I definitely jumped the gun and should have waited for the entire complete list to come out. You did a great job with this as you always do and I appreciate what you did. Thank you and hopefully no hard feelings.

Thanks bootsy. No hard feelings. I still recommend you (and everyone else) to watch some non-English movies. There's a whole world of cinema waiting on you :)

Oh I definitely will. I own a few foreign movies: Oldboy, Memories of Murder, The Lives of Others, City of God, Pan's Labryinth. I know these are like the essentials but I really want to get more into them. Been wanting to watch the Three Colors Trilogy and will eventually once I get out of this apartment and can watch movies the way I want to. We are building a house and moving this summer so the last part of the year I plan on watching a lot of movies that I haven't had a chance to.

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Re: Films of the 1990s: Top 150 movies of 1990s FINAL RESULTS

Postby Petri » Tue Mar 21, 2017 5:12 pm

And here's the list by people who watched at least half of the non-US movies (11 voters)
(BleuPanda, bonnielaurel, Michel, Rob, Dexter, antonius, Gillingham , fredp, Midaso, Petri, Greg)

1. Pulp Fiction (No change)
2. Festen [The Celebration](Up 2)
3. Breaking the Waves (Up 6)
4. Fargo (Up 3)
5. The Big Lebowski (Down -2)
6. Goodfellas (Down -4)
7. Magnolia (Up 1)
8. Boogie Nights (Up 3)
9. The Thin Red Line (Up 10)
10. 大紅燈籠高高掛 [Raise the Red Lantern] (Up 11)
11. The Silence of the Lambs (Down -5)
12. もののけ姫 [Princess Mononoke] (Up 6)
13. Naked (Up 3)
14. Being John Malkovich (Up 10)
15. Unforgiven (Down -10)
16. Eyes Wide Shut (Up 4)
17. Trois couleurs: Rouge [Three Colors: Red] (Up 8)
18. 重慶森林 [Chungking Express] (Up 11)
19. The Piano (Down -2)
20. Riget [The Kingdom](Up 12)
21. Barton Fink (Up 10)
22. Sátántangó [Satan's Tango] (Up 6)
23. Before Sunrise (Down -9)
24. Happiness (Up 16)
25. Trainspotting (Down -13)
26. Die zweite Heimat - Chronik einer Jugend [Heimat II: A Chronicle of a Generation](Up 8)
27. American Beauty (Down -14)
28. Reservoir Dogs (Down -13)
29. 牯嶺街少年殺人事件 [A Brighter Summer Day] (Up 6)
30. Trois couleurs: Bleu [Three Colors: Blue] (Up 7)
31. Short Cuts (Up 14)
32. Lost Highway (Up 24)
33. The Sweet Hereafter (Up 6)
34. Rosetta (Down -1)
35. Todo sobre mi madre [All About My Mother](Up 3)
36. Trust (Down -6)
37. Schindler's List (Down -11)
38. Idioterne (Up 11)
39. Safe (Up 9)
40. Terminator 2: Judgment Day (Down -18)
41. Tulitikkutehtaan tyttö [The Match Factory Girl] (Up 18)
42. Kauas pilvet karkaavat [Drifting Clouds] (Up 12)
43. Secrets & Lies (Up 20)
44. Fight Club (Down -34)
45. C'est arrivé près de chez vous [Man Bites Dog] (Up 15)
46. Dead Man (Up 28)
47. The Player (Up 5)
48. Groundhog Day (Down -7)
49. 菊豆 [Ju Dou] (Down -2)
50. Hana-bi [Fireworks](Up 16)
51. The Usual Suspects (Down -28)
52. La double vie de Véronique [The Double Life of Veronique] (Up 13)
53. The Remains of the Day (Down -3)
54. La promesse [The Promise] (Up 13)
55. Hoop Dreams (Down -9)
56. La belle noiseuse [The Beautiful Troublemaker] (Up 13)
57. Jackie Brown (Up 5)
58. Tierra (Up 12)
59. Los amantes del círculo polar [The Lovers of the Arctic Circle](Down -2)
60. L.A. Confidential (Down -24)
61. The Insider (Up 3)
62. Close-Up (Up 14)
63. Les amants du Pont-Neuf [The Lovers on the Bridge] (Down -5)
64. The Lion King (Down -13)
65. Ed Wood (Down -4)
66. Heat (Down -39)
67. Ghost Dog: The Way of the Samurai (Up 13)
68. 攻殻機動隊 [Ghost in the Shell] (Up 9)
69. The Matrix (Down -16)
70. Kika (Up 14)
71. The Ice Storm (Up 18)
72. Crumb (Up 18)
73. Underground (Up 6)
74. 春光乍洩 [Happy Together](Up 9)
75. The Straight Story (Down -3)
76. Saving Private Ryan (Down -21)
77. ソナチネ [Sonatine] (Up 8)
78. Boyz n the Hood (Down -10)
79. طعم گيلاس [Taste of Cherry] (Up 8)
80. The Truman Show (Down -5)
81. Toy Story (Down -39)
82. Se7en (Down -38)
83. Casino (Down -10)
84. Rushmore (Up 34)
85. Lone Star (Up 6)
86. La haine [Hate] (Up 2)
87. Abre los ojos [Open Your Eyes](Down -6)
88. Bad Lieutenant (Up 6)
89. Miller's Crossing (Down -3)
90. When We Were Kings (Up 3)
91. Funny Games (Up 1)
92. Bram Stoker's Dracula (Up 41)
93. The Crying Game (Up 21)
94. Wild at Heart (Up 13)
95. Simple Men (Up 6)
96. Howards End (Up 7)
97. JFK (Up 3)
98. Thelma & Louise (Up 21)
99. Beauty and the Beast (Down -21)
100. Leaving Las Vegas (Up 22)
101. Toy Story 2 (Down -30)
102. The Shawshank Redemption (Down -59)
103. The Iron Giant (Down -4)
104. Smoke (Down -6)
105. Lola Rennt [Run Lola Run] (Down -9)
106. Orlando (Down -24)
107. An Angel at My Table (Down -5)
108. Dazed and Confused (Up 22)
109. Election (Up 3)
110. Hearts of Darkness: A Filmmaker's Apocalypse (Down -5)
111. A Simple Plan(Up 6)
112. 阿飛正傳 [Days of Being Wild] (Up 3)
113. Clueless (Down -7)
114. Sling Blade (Up 17)
115. Jurassic Park (Up 9)
116. Pusher (Down -5)
117. King of New York (Down -20)
118. Edward Scissorhands (Down -14)
119. Malcolm X (Down -3)
120. The English Patient (Up 12)
121. Gattaca (Down -12)
122. Glengarry Glen Ross (Down -12)
123. Aladdin (Up 19)
124. Twelve Monkeys (Up 3)
125. In the Name of the Father (Up 13)
126. Basic Instinct (Up 13)
127. Le mari de la coiffeuse [The Hairdresser's Husband] (Down -4)
128. Trois couleurs: Blanc [Three Colors: White](Down -15)
129. Dark City (Up 14)
130. Dances with Wolves (Up 10)
131. American History X (Down -23)
132. La vita è bella [Life is Beautiful](Down -12)
133. James and the Giant Peach (Up 12)
134. Clerks (Down -6)
135. L'appartement [The Appartment](Down -14)
136. Forrest Gump (Down -41)
137. Sleepless in Seattle (Up 7)
138. The Fugitive (Down -2)
139. Good Will Hunting (Down -4)
140. The Adjuster (Down -15)
141. Total Recall (Down -7)
142. The Godfather, Part III (Down -1)
143. Jerry Maguire (Down -6)
144. Out of Sight (Up 2)
145. Quiz Show (Down -19)
146. Point Break (Up 3)
147. The Sixth Sense (Down -18)
148. In the Line of Fire (Down -1)
149. Léon [The Professional] (Up 1)
150. Lock, Stock and Two Smoking Barrels (Down -2)

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Re: Films of the 1990s: Top 150 movies of 1990s FINAL RESULTS

Postby notbrianeno » Tue Mar 21, 2017 5:46 pm

BleuPanda wrote:
notbrianeno wrote:I've got to say, I deeply regret placing The Silence of the Lambs as high as I did on my list. It was a favorite upon first viewing in high school five years ago, and i had since forgotten about the transmisogyny that pervaded the film while making my list until watching it again yesterday. While Hopkins and Foster are stunning, as is Jonathan Demme's lightning-quick direction, the film spends a major part of its running time disparaging the LGBT community either through coded language and images, or the infamous character of Buffalo Bill. While i'm glad to see the film's merits rewarded in this poll, I have to say I feel ashamed to have my username next to it as its biggest fan.



I feel like I was in a similar boat; the first time I watched it, back in high school, I pretty much didn't know transgender people existed, so the fact it could be offensive completely flew over my head. It's kind of an awkward movie to consider, because every other element is top of the line, but this aspect is an ugly blight. In the end, however, Buffalo Bill is based off many real-life serial killers; they could have handled it better than they did, but the character has a basis in real people. They just unfortunately tossed the idea of gender in...


Glad to see i'm not the only one in this boat. Below is a great piece by cultural feminist writer Jos Truitt (a trans woman herself) about how the film dives into some particularly gnarly territory regarding gender, including from the sometimes transphobic perspectives of cis feminists.

http://feministing.com/2016/03/10/my-au ... the-lambs/
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Re: Films of the 1990s: Top 150 movies of 1990s FINAL RESULTS

Postby BleuPanda » Tue Mar 21, 2017 6:20 pm

notbrianeno wrote:
BleuPanda wrote:
notbrianeno wrote:I've got to say, I deeply regret placing The Silence of the Lambs as high as I did on my list. It was a favorite upon first viewing in high school five years ago, and i had since forgotten about the transmisogyny that pervaded the film while making my list until watching it again yesterday. While Hopkins and Foster are stunning, as is Jonathan Demme's lightning-quick direction, the film spends a major part of its running time disparaging the LGBT community either through coded language and images, or the infamous character of Buffalo Bill. While i'm glad to see the film's merits rewarded in this poll, I have to say I feel ashamed to have my username next to it as its biggest fan.



I feel like I was in a similar boat; the first time I watched it, back in high school, I pretty much didn't know transgender people existed, so the fact it could be offensive completely flew over my head. It's kind of an awkward movie to consider, because every other element is top of the line, but this aspect is an ugly blight. In the end, however, Buffalo Bill is based off many real-life serial killers; they could have handled it better than they did, but the character has a basis in real people. They just unfortunately tossed the idea of gender in...


Glad to see i'm not the only one in this boat. Below is a great piece by cultural feminist writer Jos Truitt (a trans woman herself) about how the film dives into some particularly gnarly territory regarding gender, including from the sometimes transphobic perspectives of cis feminists.

http://feministing.com/2016/03/10/my-au ... the-lambs/



To me, it feels like The Silence of the Lambs was made more in ignorance of the situation than anything else; I honestly don't believe the people involved were going for anything more than creating a fictional version of Ed Gein.

It's interesting how the figure of Ed Gein looms over three major films; Norman Bates in Psycho is a clear version of him, but instead of focusing on gender, Bates is written to be obsessed with a singular person. A woman, yes, but Norman Bates doesn't desire to be a woman; he wants to become his mother specifically, whatever that means. It works because such a singular obsession is unique to his character, and it frames him as remaining cisgender.

The Texas Chainsaw Massacre does the right thing by focusing on the body horror. It picks up on the truly horrifying aspect; the idea of creating furniture out of human skin, regardless of the gender of who it once belonged to. It sidesteps the gender issue entirely.

The Silence of the Lambs goes headfirst into the skinsuit aspect, but instead of just letting it be the act of a madman, it tries to psychoanalyze him. This backfires wildly, as it morphs this act of violence into a desperate desire to transform. There were many ways they could have handled the exact setup that kept Bill firmly in the cisgender camp, but it becomes this convoluted mess; a cisgender madman who makes a suit out of his victims is more believable than where the film decides to go.
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Re: Films of the 1990s: Top 150 movies of 1990s FINAL RESULTS

Postby Nick » Tue Mar 21, 2017 7:38 pm

It's been a while since I've seen "The Silence of the Lambs", but I think the movie does a decent job of reminding the viewer that Buffalo Bill is not a real transgendered individual, nor is he meant to be representative of transgendered individuals. Some choice quotes form the movie...

"There's no correlation between transsexualism and violence."

"Transsexuals are very passive. Clever girl."

"Billy is not a real transsexual. But he thinks he is. He tries to be."

"Billy hates his own identity, you see, and he thinks that makes him a transsexual."

Now that doesn't mean that the movie is the gold standard of what transgendered representation in movies should look like. The movie certainly could've done a lot more to draw the divide between Buffalo Bill and true transgendered individuals. But considering that the movie came out in 1991 (and is based off of a book that came out in 1988), and that the character of Buffalo Bill was made from a composite of several different real life serial killers (one of which, Ed Gein, did make his own "woman suit"), I'm going to give it something of a pass. If we're going to start applying 2017 morals to every past movie or book or TV show, then we're going to open a whole big can of worms.

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Re: Films of the 1990s: Top 150 movies of 1990s FINAL RESULTS

Postby BleuPanda » Tue Mar 21, 2017 8:07 pm

Nick wrote:It's been a while since I've seen "The Silence of the Lambs", but I think the movie does a decent job of reminding the viewer that Buffalo Bill is not a real transgendered individual, nor is he meant to be representative of transgendered individuals. Some choice quotes form the movie...

"There's no correlation between transsexualism and violence."

"Transsexuals are very passive. Clever girl."

"Billy is not a real transsexual. But he thinks he is. He tries to be."

"Billy hates his own identity, you see, and he thinks that makes him a transsexual."

Now that doesn't mean that the movie is the gold standard of what transgendered representation in movies should look like. The movie certainly could've done a lot more to draw the divide between Buffalo Bill and true transgendered individuals. But considering that the movie came out in 1991 (and is based off of a book that came out in 1988), and that the character of Buffalo Bill was made from a composite of several different real life serial killers (one of which, Ed Gein, did make his own "woman suit"), I'm going to give it something of a pass. If we're going to start applying 2017 morals to every past movie or book or TV show, then we're going to open a whole big can of worms.



It's not just 2017 morals; this movie had protests back when it came out exactly because of this issue. And it's important to consider how representation frames issues to the world at large; a character like Buffalo Bill reinforces incredibly negative views about an actual group of people. When pretty much every transgender woman I know is disgusted by this movie, it shows that there is a problem; notbrianeno's article does a fine job diving into that viewpoint.

We should be able to call out works from the past when they do wrong; art can have widespread cultural impact, especially when it might be someone's first encounter with certain subject matter. Movies can still be high quality while having problematic content. It might be easy to just give the past a free pass, but when we have articles about actual people professing how viewing The Silence of the Lambs when it came out harmed their development due to how it appeared to represent people like them, it's a significant issue that needs to be considered when discussing the film. The fact it's such an outstanding movie otherwise is part of the problem; people will jump to defend even its most glaring flaw.

And most of those quotes from the film are problematic in their own right (as the article points out), and actually where a lot of the problems come from; it defines transgender women in broad strokes as a way to justify the idea that Buffalo Bill couldn't possibly be a woman; it supports this idea that other people get to determine the validity of transgender people's identity.
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Re: Films of the 1990s: Top 150 movies of 1990s FINAL RESULTS

Postby prosecutorgodot » Tue Mar 21, 2017 10:01 pm

As someone mildly familiar with the novel, I think the book does as Nick says, and tries to make a distinction that Buffalo Bill is not trying to become a woman. But of course translation to the big screen can change things up.

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Re: Films of the 1990s: Top 150 movies of 1990s FINAL RESULTS

Postby Rocky Raccoon » Tue Mar 21, 2017 11:12 pm

Interesting conversation about Silence of the Lambs. I read the article posted above, and all I can say is to each their own. I still think it's one of the greatest movies of the '90s, and I don't have issues with the depiction of Buffalo Bill. I'll tell you why.

Fisrt, the characters of Lecter and Starling are only mimicking what was conventional psychiatric thought of the time. It's art imitating real life, and it's up to the viewer to decipher the validity of it. I honestly don't think the makers of the film were espousing a particular viewpoint on stereotypical transgender behavior. As horrible and backward as psychiatric practices at the time may have been concerning transgender issues, for those characters to have some sort of more enlightened views wouldn't have been believable in the least.

Second, as a rational human being, I know that one person doesn't represent a group of people. Every segment of society has bad people in it. So I can separate Buffalo Bill from other transgender people as not representative of them as a whole. I can do this just as easily as I can say Denzel Washington's character in Training Day doesn't represent all black cops, or the Joker in any Batman movie isn't symbolic of all clowns.

Therefor, when I watch Buffalo Bill, I'm not thinking, "Boy, those transgender people sure are fucked up," I'm thinking, "Boy, that Buffalo Bill sure is fucked up." I honestly don't put any kind of connection between his violent personality and his gender identity. I know some would argue the makers of the movie are trying to make that connection, but I don't think they are. Buffalo Bill is a psychopath, he also just happens to be transgender. His gender dysphoria manifests itself in his acts of violence as a part of his personality, but it is not the cause of the acts. In short, Buffalo Bill would be a killer regardless of whatever his gender identity.

I can understand how members of the trans community wouldn't like this portrayal. After all, they are a minority who has been persecuted over the ages, and still are in many places around the world. Even in so-called more enlightened countries they are often discriminated against and ridiculed. A character such as Buffalo Bill could be perceived as shedding a bad light on them, but as I've said before, that's only if you really think in stereotypes. I know a lot of people unfortunately do, but I don't think it's the movie makers' duty to cater to the lowest common denominator.

As for the movie "harming transgender development due to how it appeared to represent people like them," I'm surprised more people aren't more self conscious than that. When I watched 12 Years a Slave, I didn't relate to the Michael Fassbender character just because he's a heterosexual, married, middle-aged white guy like me. I didn't think, "Hey, that guy's a lot like me in many ways, so I also must be a racist rapist asshole." Are transgender people really so impressionable that they would let a Hollywood depiction of one character affect their perceptions of themselves? I think that viewpoint is actually selling a huge majority of transgender people short.

So while I respect other views on this, I don't wholeheartedly agree with all of them.

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Re: Films of the 1990s: Top 150 movies of 1990s FINAL RESULTS

Postby BleuPanda » Tue Mar 21, 2017 11:54 pm

Rocky Raccoon wrote:When I watched 12 Years a Slave, I didn't relate to the Michael Fassbender character just because he's a heterosexual, married, middle-aged white guy like me. I didn't think, "Hey, that guy's a lot like me in many ways, so I also must be a racist rapist asshole."


You do realize that there are literally thousands of mainstream characters that fit that description, right? Almost every mainstream depiction of transgender people up until the last couple years has used theit identity as a punchline, and you're really trying to defend it by saying some white guys are bad too? Duh...almost every mainstream film only has straight white people in it. You get to be the good guys and the bad guys. You get to be everyone...you even get to be transgender women because Hollywood won't cast actual transgender women in movies. I'm so sorry a movie had a white male antagonist; it sure must be nice you can find a few thousand films that has a heroic white guy at the center to make up for it.
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Re: Films of the 1990s: Top 150 movies of 1990s FINAL RESULTS

Postby Nick » Wed Mar 22, 2017 12:11 am

On one hand I can kind of understand RockyRacoon's point, but at the same time I think he's missing something important here.

It's pretty easy for someone like me, a straight white man, to look at our media and say "eh, so what? Can't transgendered people just accept that Buffalo Bill isn't supposed to be a representation of all transgendered people?" and move on from it.

But imagine it's the early 90s and you live in bumfuck nowhere USA and you come from a real conservative houshold in a real conservative town and you've never really heard about transgendered people in a context other than one of total disgust and you're a teenager who is having these feelings like you're not the gender that you were assigned at birth. And you fight and fight these feelings and try and deny them to yourself because you know you disgusted your friends and family and classmates will be if they ever knew the truth. And then one night you go out with some friends and see a movie where there is a transgendered character, or at least a character who is, for all intents and purposes, transgendered, and they're just this gross, awful human being, and as you're leaving the theater all your friends are making fun of the "dumb tranny" or whatever that was in the movie and you think back to all the times that the "dumb tranny" was the butt of all the jokes and you feel just a little bit shittier about life.

So yeah, long story short, while I still think the movie is a product of its time and should be treated a such, I'm sympathetic to those who felt shitty while watching it.

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Re: Films of the 1990s: Top 150 movies of 1990s FINAL RESULTS

Postby Rocky Raccoon » Wed Mar 22, 2017 12:24 am

You missed my point entirely, BleuPanda. Not sure why you're so aggressive about it, though.

I'm not defending it by saying, "some white guys are bad too." I'm saying I don't project a movie character's flaws or personality onto myself because they fit into a demographic group with me. And that tiny little segment of my overall post you chose to quote has absolutely nothing to do with the larger problem of biased Hollywood casting as you try to suggest.

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Re: Films of the 1990s: Top 150 movies of 1990s FINAL RESULTS

Postby Rocky Raccoon » Wed Mar 22, 2017 12:43 am

Nick wrote:On one hand I can kind of understand RockyRacoon's point, but at the same time I think he's missing something important here.

It's pretty easy for someone like me, a straight white man, to look at our media and say "eh, so what? Can't transgendered people just accept that Buffalo Bill isn't supposed to be a representation of all transgendered people?" and move on from it.

But imagine it's the early 90s and you live in bumfuck nowhere USA and you come from a real conservative houshold in a real conservative town and you've never really heard about transgendered people in a context other than one of total disgust and you're a teenager who is having these feelings like you're not the gender that you were assigned at birth. And you fight and fight these feelings and try and deny them to yourself because you know you disgusted your friends and family and classmates will be if they ever knew the truth. And then one night you go out with some friends and see a movie where there is a transgendered character, or at least a character who is, for all intents and purposes, transgendered, and they're just this gross, awful human being, and as you're leaving the theater all your friends are making fun of the "dumb tranny" or whatever that was in the movie and you think back to all the times that the "dumb tranny" was the butt of all the jokes and you feel just a little bit shittier about life.

So yeah, long story short, while I still think the movie is a product of its time and should be treated a such, I'm sympathetic to those who felt shitty while watching it.


I can certainly see this, and I addressed this particular issue in the fifth paragraph of my original post. I'm just not sure where you draw the line between what is the responsibility of a movie and what is the responsibility of the audience. Like I said, I don't see the character as perverse transgender person, I see him as a perverse person who also happens to be transgender. There's no denying transgender people have been portrayed horribly as a whole in Hollywood until extremely recently (and it's great that is changing now), but I don't think this movie deserves as much criticism as it's getting. Perhaps it's a victim of its own quality, and not just some dumb comedy that uses transgender people as a punchline.

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Re: Films of the 1990s: Top 150 movies of 1990s FINAL RESULTS

Postby BleuPanda » Wed Mar 22, 2017 12:45 am

Rocky Raccoon wrote:Not sure why you're so aggressive about it, though.

I'm not defending it by saying, "some white guys are bad too." I'm saying I don't project a movie character's flaws or personality onto myself because they fit into a demographic group with me.


I'm getting agressive because you're being rather callous about something important to me.

As a straight white man who has had the grand majority of mainstream characters match your identity, of course the portrayal of white men doesn't bother or affect you. You have so many choices of who to relate to.

Do you know how many mainstream asexual characters I can name? One; thank god, by some chance, he's an awesome character due to being fully fleshed out before coming out. But a grand majority of transgender characters are portrayed negatively, and it has the exact effect that Nick laid out. It's not about identifying exactly with a character; it has to do with how the world views you due to those characters that could easily be the first time they even hear of that group of people.

Movies do have a social responsibility.
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Re: Films of the 1990s: Top 150 movies of 1990s FINAL RESULTS

Postby Rocky Raccoon » Wed Mar 22, 2017 1:21 am

BleuPanda wrote:
Rocky Raccoon wrote:Not sure why you're so aggressive about it, though.

I'm not defending it by saying, "some white guys are bad too." I'm saying I don't project a movie character's flaws or personality onto myself because they fit into a demographic group with me.


I'm getting agressive because you're being rather callous about something important to me.

As a straight white man who has had the grand majority of mainstream characters match your identity, of course the portrayal of white men doesn't bother or affect you. You have so many choices of who to relate to.

Do you know how many mainstream asexual characters I can name? One; thank god, by some chance, he's an awesome character due to being fully fleshed out before coming out. But a grand majority of transgender characters are portrayed negatively, and it has the exact effect that Nick laid out. It's not about identifying exactly with a character; it has to do with how the world views you due to those characters that could easily be the first time they even hear of that group of people.

Movies do have a social responsibility.


I honestly don't think I'm being callous, and I'm certainly not trying to be -- just the opposite. But I'm sorry if it's coming across this way, I'm just giving a different perspective. I certainly admire your passion on the subject and thank you for airing your views. Who is the asexual character you're talking about? I would be interested in seeing that character in whatever show they are in.

I agree with the general view that movies have a social responsibility, but what I think we disagree on is the degree.

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Re: Films of the 1990s: Top 150 movies of 1990s FINAL RESULTS

Postby BleuPanda » Wed Mar 22, 2017 1:27 am

Rocky Raccoon wrote:
BleuPanda wrote:
Rocky Raccoon wrote:Not sure why you're so aggressive about it, though.

I'm not defending it by saying, "some white guys are bad too." I'm saying I don't project a movie character's flaws or personality onto myself because they fit into a demographic group with me.


I'm getting agressive because you're being rather callous about something important to me.

As a straight white man who has had the grand majority of mainstream characters match your identity, of course the portrayal of white men doesn't bother or affect you. You have so many choices of who to relate to.

Do you know how many mainstream asexual characters I can name? One; thank god, by some chance, he's an awesome character due to being fully fleshed out before coming out. But a grand majority of transgender characters are portrayed negatively, and it has the exact effect that Nick laid out. It's not about identifying exactly with a character; it has to do with how the world views you due to those characters that could easily be the first time they even hear of that group of people.

Movies do have a social responsibility.


I honestly don't think I'm being callous, and I'm certainly not trying to be -- just the opposite. But I'm sorry if it's coming across this way, I'm just giving a different perspective. I certainly admire your passion on the subject and thank you for airing your views. Who is the asexual character you're talking about? I would be interested in seeing that character in whatever show they are in.

I agree with the general view that movies have a social responsibility, but what I think we disagree on is the degree.



It's a character in Bojack Horseman. I don't want to say who because how they develop is interesting and a key part of season 3.

I think I also get an aggressive tone when I'm passionate about something; sorry about that. I speak with force and need to work on it (the problem is it doesnt appear aggressive from my point of view until someone calls me out...)
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Re: Films of the 1990s: Top 150 movies of 1990s FINAL RESULTS

Postby notbrianeno » Wed Mar 22, 2017 1:46 am

Nick wrote:It's been a while since I've seen "The Silence of the Lambs", but I think the movie does a decent job of reminding the viewer that Buffalo Bill is not a real transgendered individual, nor is he meant to be representative of transgendered individuals. Some choice quotes form the movie...

"There's no correlation between transsexualism and violence."

"Transsexuals are very passive. Clever girl."

"Billy is not a real transsexual. But he thinks he is. He tries to be."

"Billy hates his own identity, you see, and he thinks that makes him a transsexual."


Ignoring the inherent transphobia in the quotes the producers of Silence threw in (I recommend the article I posted), I would argue that intent doesn't really matter when it comes to things like this, as much as the actual effect it has on moviegoers. The producers of Breakfast at Tiffany's likely intended Mickey Rooney's character to be slapstick comic relief, as did the producers of Sixteen Candles with Long Duk Dong, but the intent doesn't matter when both characters were in actuality horrible racist stereotypes of Asians. Regardless if the producers threw in those quotes to try to clarify things, Buffalo Bill went on to be one of the main portrayals of trans people in the media and in society, and this is undeniable, both from the films cultural influence (plenty of references to buffalo bill in other films and tv shows), and my own personal experience with people making jokes about the character.

The same goes for judging films by current social norms. While the technical achievements of Birth of a Nation might have been groundbreaking, saying the films heavily racist content should be given a pass because of the time in which it was made is almost a way of temporarily bringing those norms into the present. Without modern social critique of historically racist films, all thats left is praise and canonization for problematic films in the modern era thats not much different from when it was made.

Most importantly, I would argue that Buffalo Bill's character isn't merely a horrific racist sideshow like Mr. Yunioshi or Long Duk Dong, but so much one of the primary antagonists and plot elements of the film, that makes it so hard to simply dismiss the films transphobia as a minor sin. By coding the Ed Gein-esque character as gender non-conforming, the film plays on societies fear of trans women attacking or violating cis women, or invalidating the concept of womanhood (Bill literally tries to build a woman suit).

It's notable that Laura Jane Grace (of Against Me!), has gone on record saying that Bill was her first exposure to trans people, along with what I imagine to be thousands of other trans people today. I can't imagine how horrifying and scarring of an experience that has to be, realizing that society views you as aligned with a character designed to be a freak and a villain in a film (the infamous "tucking" scene, for instance, has become one of the films most enduring images) among the most acclaimed of the 90s.

I write this all not because I'm a saint or some perfect being, but as a white, cis, gay man who has witnessed several trans friends endure residual minority stress not only from personal experience, but because of the idea of trans people as portrayed and created by films like this. That is why I feel guilt about not revisiting the film before making my list.
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Re: Films of the 1990s: Top 150 movies of 1990s FINAL RESULTS

Postby babydoll » Wed Mar 22, 2017 2:48 am

Reading the discussion of The Silence of the Lambs has been very interesting indeed and raises many good points. However, I am confused by one thing, notbrianeno. If you hated the implications of transphobia represented by the Buffalo Bill character, going as far as to not revisit the movie before making your list, how come you ranked it #2?

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Re: Films of the 1990s: Top 150 movies of 1990s FINAL RESULTS

Postby BleuPanda » Wed Mar 22, 2017 2:53 am

babydoll wrote:Reading the discussion of The Silence of the Lambs has been very interesting indeed and raises many good points. However, I am confused by one thing, notbrianeno. If you hated the implications of transphobia represented by the Buffalo Bill character, going as far as to not revisit the movie before making your list, how come you ranked it #2?


I think what he was saying is he remembered loving it but recently rewatched it and realized the issue.
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Re: Films of the 1990s: Top 150 movies of 1990s FINAL RESULTS

Postby babydoll » Wed Mar 22, 2017 2:59 am

BleuPanda wrote:
babydoll wrote:Reading the discussion of The Silence of the Lambs has been very interesting indeed and raises many good points. However, I am confused by one thing, notbrianeno. If you hated the implications of transphobia represented by the Buffalo Bill character, going as far as to not revisit the movie before making your list, how come you ranked it #2?


I think what he was saying is he remembered loving it but recently rewatched it and realized the issue.

Oh, I thought he was saying that he remembered loving it but also remembered its transphobia yet ranked it at #2.

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Re: Films of the 1990s: Top 150 movies of 1990s FINAL RESULTS

Postby notbrianeno » Wed Mar 22, 2017 3:06 am

babydoll wrote:
BleuPanda wrote:
babydoll wrote:Reading the discussion of The Silence of the Lambs has been very interesting indeed and raises many good points. However, I am confused by one thing, notbrianeno. If you hated the implications of transphobia represented by the Buffalo Bill character, going as far as to not revisit the movie before making your list, how come you ranked it #2?


I think what he was saying is he remembered loving it but recently rewatched it and realized the issue.

Oh, I thought he was saying that he remembered loving it but also remembered its transphobia yet ranked it at #2.


No, it was just a rude, ugly awakening after a long period since viewing (5 years or so). Just goes to show the importance of revisiting things to reappraise (much like your experience after revisiting Lemonade)
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Re: Films of the 1990s: Top 150 movies of 1990s FINAL RESULTS

Postby Gillingham » Wed Mar 22, 2017 1:25 pm

Interesting article notbrianeno, thanks for posting it to add to the discussion. From my perspective and experiences it is really valuable to read articles like this, in order to understand and appreciate what trans women are facing in their daily lives. Part of me wants to say: yes, I get why you have these issues with Silence of the Lambs, but then again, it's just a film (as Hitchcock would say: it's only a movie). But both the discussion in this thread and the article mentioned clearly show that the impact a popular and acclaimed film can have on individuals and society at large can be huge. So yes, even if the makers didn't have any intentions either way, that doesn't mean a film can't be ethically problematic. I haven't seen SIlence of the Lambs for quite a long time and can't remember it influencing my views of trans women at all (like Rocky Raccoon I viewed Buffalo Bill as an individual and not as a stereotype of any kind), but I will definitely watch it with a different perspective next time around.

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Re: Films of the 1990s: Top 150 movies of 1990s FINAL RESULTS

Postby Dexter » Thu Mar 23, 2017 12:51 am

Despite reading all the previous posts and made aware of the controversy between the percieved vs. real transphobia in the film, I still wouldn't change my ranking of Silence of the Lambs in the Top 10. To me, if there is transphobia in the film, it's not as blatant as the racism in Birth of the Nation and nazi propaganda in Trumph of the Will, visually striking and historically important films that I'd demote a star or two. There is an dialogue in Silence wherein Clarice stated transgenders are not violent persons and Hannibal explains that Buffalo Bill is not a true transexual, he just hates himself so much that he assumes he must be one. It's the same as Hitchcock; he's one of my favorite director in spite of his perceived depiction of women in his films/misogny, which I think is a result of oversimplification of his body of work.

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Re: Films of the 1990s: Top 150 movies of 1990s FINAL RESULTS

Postby Listyguy » Sat Mar 25, 2017 6:54 pm

I find myself agreeing with a lot of the points made here. There are definitely problematic elements in the movie, but were they done out of malice or a lack of understanding? I personally think it's the latter. And every other aspect of that movie (the acting, the directing, most other plot aspects) are so incredible that I don't have a lesser view of the film. Should we not read Hemingway because every woman in his novels is basically their for the pleasure of his male protagonists?

Also, what makes American Beauty pretentious? And for those of you who find it pretentious, do you also dislike Vampire Weekend, etc for being pretentious?

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Re: Films of the 1990s: Top 150 movies of 1990s FINAL RESULTS

Postby Gillingham » Tue Mar 28, 2017 5:26 pm

Listyguy wrote:Also, what makes American Beauty pretentious? And for those of you who find it pretentious, do you also dislike Vampire Weekend, etc for being pretentious?

I can agree with American Beauty being slightly pretentious, but I don't mind pretentiousness at all, as long as a film (or work of art in general) delivers while being (not too) pretentious. 2001: A Space Odyssey definitely is somewhat pretentious, but I can't complain. A bit of pretentiousness often comes with a lot of ambition. And what's wrong with that if quality is obvious as well.

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Re: Films of the 1990s: Top 150 movies of 1990s FINAL RESULTS

Postby Petri » Thu Mar 30, 2017 3:28 pm

The alternative lists (especially people who have seen at least half of the non-English movies with two Danish movies in top 3) made me think would there be an even better way to count the scores. The biggest problems are that movies everybody have seen but few loves AND movies not so many have seen but those who have love them both suffers because of not seen scores.
So I decided to count the rank that minimize the affect of unseen ones. I run 150 different lists one for every movie (of course Pulp Fiction, The Silence of the Lambs, Fight Club and Forrest Gump has the same one because every one had seen them). I included only those voters who had seen the movie for a list of the movie.
So for example eight voters (BleuPanda, bonnielaurel, Michel, Rob, Dexter, Gillingham, Miguel and Petri) have watched Abre los ojos [Open Your Eyes]. So I took only them and checked what was the placement of Abre los ojos among them. I did this for every movie (and got 150 different lists). Then I checked if there were any ties (Goodfellas and Festen were both #2 of their lists). So in cases like that a movie with more votes won. There were also three cases in which two movies had same individual rank and same amount of voters. In those cases the winners was a movie with higher score.
I must say this feels the best way to rank movies (only those who have seen the movie decides how good it is). The results differ but one was still in the league on its own. Pulp Fiction was #1 in all of those 150 lists.

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Re: Films of the 1990s: Top 150 movies of 1990s FINAL RESULTS

Postby Petri » Thu Mar 30, 2017 3:30 pm

And here is the new ultimate master list

1. Pulp Fiction (No change)
2. Goodfellas (No change)
3. Festen [The Celebration] (Up 1)
4. The Big Lebowski (Down 1)
5. Unforgiven (No change)
6. Die zweite Heimat - Chronik einer Jugend [Heimat II: A Chronicle of a Generation] (Up 28)
7. Breaking the Waves (Up 2)
8. 牯嶺街少年殺人事件 [A Brighter Summer Day] (Up 27)
9. The Silence of the Lambs (Down 3)
10. Riget [The Kingdom] (Up 22)
11. Sátántangó [Satan's Tango] (Up 17)
12. Fargo (Down 5)
13. Magnolia (Down 5)
14. 大紅燈籠高高掛 [Raise the Red Lantern] (Up 7)
15. Naked (Up 1)
16. Trust (Up 14)
17. Boogie Nights (Down 6)
18. Fight Club (Down 8)
19. Before Sunrise (Down 5)
20. The Piano (Down 3)
21. もののけ姫 [Princess Mononoke] (Down 3)
22. Trainspotting (Down 10)
23. The Thin Red Line (Down 4)
24. Reservoir Dogs (Down 9)
25. American Beauty (Down 12)
26. Terminator 2: Judgment Day (Down 4)
27. Los amantes del círculo polar [The Lovers of the Arctic Circle] (Up 30)
28. Eyes Wide Shut (Down 8)
29. Trois couleurs: Rouge [Three Colors: Red] (Down 4)
30. The Usual Suspects (Down 7)
31. Rosetta (Up 2)
32. Being John Malkovich (Down 8)
33. 重慶森林 [Chungking Express] (Down 4)
34. Heat (Down 7)
35. Schindler's List (Down 9)
36. 菊豆 [Ju Dou] (Up 11)
37. Trois couleurs: Bleu [Three Colors: Blue] (No change)
38. Hoop Dreams (Up 8)
39. Kauas pilvet karkaavat [Drifting Clouds] (Up 15)
40. Barton Fink (Down 9)
41. The Sweet Hereafter (Down 2)
42. Safe (Up 6)
43. Idioterne (Up 6)
44. Tierra (Up 26)
45. Todo sobre mi madre [All About My Mother] (Down 7)
46. The Remains of the Day (Up 4)
47. Short Cuts (Down 2)
48. Happiness (Down 8)
49. Toy Story (Down 7)
50. L.A. Confidential (Down 14)
51. Groundhog Day (Down 10)
52. Tulitikkutehtaan tyttö [The Match Factory Girl] (Up 7)
53. Se7en (Down 9)
54. Les amants du Pont-Neuf [The Lovers on the Bridge] (Up 4)
55. La belle noiseuse [The Beautiful Troublemaker] (Up 14)
56. The Shawshank Redemption (Down 13)
57. The Lion King (Down 6)
58. Lost Highway (Down 2)
59. La promesse [The Promise] (Up 8)
60. The Player (Down 8)
61. C'est arrivé près de chez vous [Man Bites Dog] (Down 1)
62. The Matrix (Down 9)
63. Saving Private Ryan (Down 8)
64. Ed Wood (Down 3)
65. Hana-bi [Fireworks] (Up 1)
66. La double vie de Véronique [The Double Life of Veronique] (Down 1)
67. The Insider (Down 3)
68. Secrets & Lies (Down 5)
69. Boyz n the Hood (Down 1)
70. Close-Up (Up 6)
71. Jackie Brown (Down 9)
72. Abre los ojos [Open Your Eyes] (Up 9)
73. Toy Story 2 (Down 2)
74. 攻殻機動隊 [Ghost in the Shell] (Up 3)
75. ソナチネ [Sonatine] (Up 10)
76. Orlando (Up 6)
77. The Straight Story (Down 5)
78. Dead Man (Down 4)
79. Underground (No change)
80. Ghost Dog: The Way of the Samurai (No change)
81. Kika (Up 3)
82. When We Were Kings (Up 11)
83. The Truman Show (Down 8)
84. Casino (Down 11)
85. Crumb (Up 5)
86. طعم گيلاس [Taste of Cherry] (Up 1)
87. 春光乍洩 [Happy Together] (Down 4)
88. Beauty and the Beast (Down 10)
89. Lone Star (Up 2)
90. Bad Lieutenant (Up 4)
91. La haine [Hate] (Down 3)
92. Funny Games (No change)
93. King of New York (Up 4)
94. Miller's Crossing (Down 8)
95. The Ice Storm (Down 6)
96. The Iron Giant (Up 3)
97. Simple Men (Up 4)
98. Smoke (No change)
99. Howards End (Up 4)
100. Pusher (Up 11)
101. An Angel at My Table (Up 1)
102. Lola Rennt [Run Lola Run] (Down 6)
103. Forrest Gump (Down 8)
104. Hearts of Darkness: A Filmmaker's Apocalypse (Up 1)
105. JFK (Down 5)
106. Gattaca (Up 3)
107. American History X (Up 1)
108. Election (Up 4)
109. Glengarry Glen Ross (Up 1)
110. Rushmore (Up 8)
111. Clueless (Down 5)
112. Edward Scissorhands (Down 8)
113. Wild at Heart (Down 6)
114. A Simple Plan (Up 3)
115. 阿飛正傳 [Days of Being Wild] (No change)
116. Trois couleurs: Blanc [Three Colors: White] (Down 3)
117. Thelma & Louise (Up 2)
118. Malcolm X (Down 2)
119. L'appartement [The Appartment] (Up 2)
120. The Crying Game (Down 6)
121. La vita è bella [Life is Beautiful] (Down 1)
122. Leaving Las Vegas (No change)
123. Twelve Monkeys (Up 4)
124. Jurassic Park (No change)
125. Le mari de la coiffeuse [The Hairdresser's Husband] (Down 2)
126. The Adjuster (Down 1)
127. Sling Blade (Up 4)
128. Dazed and Confused (Up 2)
129. Quiz Show (Down 3)
130. The Sixth Sense (Down 1)
131. The Fugitive (Up 5)
132. Clerks (Down 4)
133. The English Patient (Down 1)
134. Total Recall (No change)
135. Jerry Maguire (Up 2)
136. Good Will Hunting (Down 1)
137. Bram Stoker's Dracula (Down 4)
138. Dances with Wolves (Up 2)
139. The Godfather, Part III (Up 2)
140. Dark City (Up 3)
141. In the Name of the Father (Down 3)
142. Basic Instinct (Down 3)
143. Lock, Stock and Two Smoking Barrels (Up 5)
144. Aladdin (Down 2)
145. Point Break (Up 4)
146. Léon [The Professional] (Up 4)
147. Out of Sight (Down 1)
148. In the Line of Fire (Down 1)
149. Sleepless in Seattle (Down 5)
150. James and the Giant Peach (Down 5)

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Re: Films of the 1990s: Top 150 movies of 1990s FINAL RESULTS

Postby BleuPanda » Thu Mar 30, 2017 3:35 pm

I think that list favors obscurity too much; I doubt a lot of the people who didn't see Heimat II would rank it on a comparable level to the ones who did; same thing with my favorite, A Brighter Summer Day. It likely works well for more popular movies, but each movie has to have at least one or two fans to get in, so it's a problem when only those mega-fans' opinions determine their score. I think our usual system does a good job balancing obscure works.

Does a movie that only one of us have seen but places at their #1 deserve to be our overall #1?
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Re: Films of the 1990s: Top 150 movies of 1990s FINAL RESULTS

Postby Petri » Thu Mar 30, 2017 3:46 pm

BleuPanda wrote:I think that list favors obscurity too much; I doubt a lot of the people who didn't see Heimat II would rank it on a comparable level to the ones who did; same thing with my favorite, A Brighter Summer Day. It likely works well for more popular movies, but each movie has to have at least one or two fans to get in, so it's a problem when only those mega-fans' opinions determine their score. I think our usual system does a good job balancing obscure works.

Does a movie that only one of us have seen but places at their #1 deserve to be our overall #1?

I can see the problem. Those least seen ones with mostly very high votes are maybe too high in the final list (and of course #1 vote for a movie no one else hasn't seen doesn't deserve to be in #1 or #2 on the final list) . But admit you also like to see stuff like A Brighter Summer Day, Riget and Satan's Tango so high (and James and the Giant Peach at last). :whistle:

I see only positive on that movies like Festen really has a chance to win.

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Re: Films of the 1990s: Top 150 movies of 1990s FINAL RESULTS

Postby BleuPanda » Thu Mar 30, 2017 3:56 pm

While I love seeing those movies so high, what I'd really love is to see them manage that through the people who didn't see them discovering that they love them.
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Re: Films of the 1990s: Top 150 movies of 1990s FINAL RESULTS

Postby cristinajosaf » Tue Apr 11, 2017 9:05 am

Hey, Thanks for providing the list of nice movies. I like that movies..


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