Discussion Regarding When We All Fall Asleep, Where Do We Go?

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Holden
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Discussion Regarding When We All Fall Asleep, Where Do We Go?

Post by Holden »

Hello! Recently, when discussing the Grammys with a friend of mine (this friend was born in 1980 and graduated with a Music Ed major) and he said that he thought that Billie Eilish’s album was basically the current generations equivalent of Nevermind by Nirvana. Obviously it’s too soon to tell now for certain, but do you think that this is a possibility, or agree with this?
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Re: Discussion Regarding When We All Fall Asleep, Where Do We Go?

Post by acroamor »

Absolutely not.
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Re: Discussion Regarding When We All Fall Asleep, Where Do We Go?

Post by DaveC »

"WHEN WE ALL FALL ASLEEP, WHERE DO WE GO?" is leading the way in terms of where pop music is going and will influence many pop albums over the next few years. (This is true to an even greater extent of "Magdelene", which I personally enjoy much more.) Nevermind was an entirely different kind of phenomenon.
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Re: Discussion Regarding When We All Fall Asleep, Where Do We Go?

Post by Rocky Raccoon »

I did name it my top album of the year, but I still don't put it in a league with Nevermind. But that's just speaking to my opinion of its overall quality. As far as its influence moving forward, I agree with DaveC.
While When We All Fall Asleep, Where do We Go? will certainly be influential on some future bands, I don't think it's really going to change the face of popular music or what people are actually listening to all that much. It's already a type of music that's widely listened to today.
As someone who is old enough to remember the effect of Nevermind, it was a complete sea change, almost overnight, of what radio and at that time MTV was all about. What was termed "alternative," and was to that point a niche music enjoyed by a small but passionate and discerning segment of the music listening population, all of a sudden became the mainstream. It opened the charts for other similar bands of the time, and for better or worse, spawned literally hundreds of new bands either inspired by, or trying to cash in on, Nirvana's success.
As much as I like Billie Eilish, I really don't see her having that much much of an effect, or causing a seismic shift in popular music the way they did.
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Re: Discussion Regarding When We All Fall Asleep, Where Do We Go?

Post by mileswide »

Impossible to say, both albums' greatest strength is their distinctive, accessible blend of fashionable influences but, as Rocky Raccoon says, the success of Nevermind inspired labels and new bands alike to capitalise within months in a way that only Never Mind the Bollocks can compare with. In the wake of both Never Mind albums, an old guard of artists had to prepare to evolve or die.

WWAFA, WDWG? hasn't been a Year Zero generational touchstone in the same manner, nor the kind of album that needs critical re-evaluation, to be likely to hold a similar legacy to Nevermind. Even among pop albums, I expect its reputation will be more of the level of Like a Prayer than Thriller. I'd be delighted to be proved wrong as I like Eilish's album more than any I've mentioned above apart from the Sex Pistols' but I can't see it.
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Re: Discussion Regarding When We All Fall Asleep, Where Do We Go?

Post by Live in Phoenix »

the current generations equivalent of Nevermind by Nirvana.
Not every generation even gets a Nevermind -- that's how rare it was.
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Re: Discussion Regarding When We All Fall Asleep, Where Do We Go?

Post by Romain »

I honestly don't think so.
I don't think anybody around me knows who this person is, not even by name. Personally, if it wasn't for this site, I would never have known what she sang, or even noticed that she was a singer.

Before the internet, in order for there to be a worldwide phenomenon, it really had to be an extraordinary success... and over a period of time... and it affected just about everybody, whatever their age, through TV.
Now it's only promo and, in France at least, there's no longer a single quality show that invites stars. Either it's confidential shows that invite exciting but very little known people. Or they are big disgusting shows that invite stars to sing a playback.

Now, one song is enough to appear everywhere on the internet, to make the buzz in all the people's domains... but in fact, you find yourself known without even 90% of people knowing what you sing or even what you look like. And you're evacuated by the next one... which is evacuated by the next one... evacuated by the next one... evacuated by the next one, and so on.

In fact, phenomena like the Beatles or Nirvana are, in my humble opinion, impossible to reproduce nowadays and in the future.
Last edited by Romain on Tue Feb 04, 2020 12:42 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Discussion Regarding When We All Fall Asleep, Where Do We Go?

Post by Henrik »

Sorry Romain, but I don’t think you (and me) represent the current generation. :whistle:

This is a question I have not thought about before, but I find it very interesting. From a female perspective (and the time has finally come for women now) Billie breaks perhaps more ground than Nirvana ever did.
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Re: Discussion Regarding When We All Fall Asleep, Where Do We Go?

Post by Romain »

Henrik wrote: Mon Feb 03, 2020 9:36 am Sorry Romain, but I don’t think you (and me) represent the current generation. :whistle:
Ouch... that hurts ! :mrgreen:
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Re: Discussion Regarding When We All Fall Asleep, Where Do We Go?

Post by Huangal70 »

I know sales aren't everything but Nevermind came midway through the late 80s-late 90s CD boom where the big sellers were the biggest ever in the music industry and when something got huge it was hard to avoid overexposure to it, as all of the ordinary persons' traditional entries into music such as radio/MTV would relentlessly plug it.
Nowdays with the internet and the choice that gives, i doubt there will ever be another Nevermind, as there simply isn't the opportunity to make it so. If someone doesn't want to listen to Billie Eilish, they have more than enough alternative choice but Nirvana was fairly unavoidable in its heyday (and pretty much ever since).
Also, although i do think it is overrated on this site (In Utero is better), you can't deny Nevermind is a very consistent album. It is one of the only ones that i would not describe as an absolute favorite of mine that i could tell you how every song goes because so much of it has been ingrained into western culture since (just see how nearly every song is on the AM list somewhere). Then look at Billie Eilish. Yes, it was an above average pop debut album, but as with almost everything in that genre, it has a degree of filler. I mean, Bad Guy will undoubtably be remembered in years to come, but will the album as a whole be as well? I doubt it.
Finally, Nirvana pretty much shaped 90s musical culture. After Nevermind, the 'in' thing was to reject campy 80s fun, and to instead back moody, semi-ironic 'alternative' rock. Will Billie Eilish have the same effect? I doubt it very much. In fact i'd say she is (or is nearing) the end-point of the popular music trajectory in the 2010s. There is no doubt over the last decade popular music has become less 'fun' and colourful and more minimal and darker (see the rise of trap). The late 00s and early 10s were dominated by things like LMFAO, Black Eyed Peas, Kesha etc. These kind of acts have been gradually phased out in way for a moodier trap-influenced sound, of which Eilish is simply a continuation. My prediction for the 20s is that pop music will become more light hearted again (In the vein of Old Town Road, which was far more of a cultural touchstone this year than Eilish was), because in the past trends have rarely lasted over a decade and Eilish doesn't feel like much new, just a continuation of the last decade of major label pop, just with a faux-edgy aesthetic.
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Re: Discussion Regarding When We All Fall Asleep, Where Do We Go?

Post by bonnielaurel »

Billie Eilish already attracted my attention in 2018 with her single You Should See Me in a Crown, and I listed her album as one of the best of 2019, especially because it has an original style and it's very consistent. Unlike many other pop albums all the tracks are good; there isn't any filler. However it didn't strike me as revolutionary or defining a generation. Grimes' Art Angels would be a better candidate for that, or Charli XCX as an eccentric pop artist in general. I'm surprised when something I like is successful, because so many good albums don't get much attention. I will never understand what makes the difference between getting recognition or not.

Romain is right with his statement that pop stars used to get much wider recognition. If you ask a hundred people on the street to name five songs by George Michael, Nirvana or Madonna most of them will do that easily. If you ask to name five songs by Billie Eilish, Grimes or Charli XCX only a minority of very young people will be able to do so. That makes me think that in a hundred years pop music might be remembered as a phenomenon of the second half of the twentieth century. After that sales have collapsed because of streaming and downloading. MTV has replaced music videos by reality soaps. There's a lot of good music, but the audience is divided into many small groups.

I have my doubts whether this is really the Golden Age of women artists, because there have been many of them in every decade, although they often didn't get the critical recognition. I have also seen decade lists with forty-nine men and PJ Harvey, which doesn't strike me as very progressive. The only thing certain about the previous decade is that there is no consensus about who the important artists are.
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Re: Discussion Regarding When We All Fall Asleep, Where Do We Go?

Post by Rob »

bonnielaurel wrote: Tue Feb 04, 2020 9:26 am However it didn't strike me as revolutionary or defining a generation. Grimes' Art Angels would be a better candidate for that, or Charli XCX as an eccentric pop artist in general.
Agreed, Billie Eilish is more a continuation of what artists did before her. Grimes, Charli XCX yes, but I also am reminded a lot of Lorde. Then again, Nirvana was also more a continuation of developments that happened in the alternative scene in the eighties. They seem a lot less revolutionary if you compare them to Pixies or Meat Puppets for example. But this is generally how art works. Nirvana broke this type of music in the mainstream, which previous acts failed to do. Grimes hasn't cracked the mainstream at all and Charli XCX only a little (Lorde is another matter, but her ascent along with Royals is actually comparable to Eilish).

Even having said all that I don't think that Eilish broke a sound to the mainstream that was all that new. I think it has more to do with her persona that seemed fresh and actually timely. She seems like a girl of and for the here and now, especially looking at younger generations. And there is were I see a comparison with Nirvana. The impact of Nevermind, as far as I can judge that (I was four years old when that album hit) can't be replicated because indeed we as a world collective consume music very differently than before as others have correctly pointed out (point in case: I only heard Old Town Road at the very end of 2019 after reading a newspaper article about it and I didn't consciously avoid it). But some artists can still connect with a certain group deeply and I feel that Eilish connected in such a way with a large part of today's youth, while also getting critical respect at the same time (something someone like, say, Post Malone can't do). So I suspect Eilish in the future will become something of a cornerstone or reference point for music from this particular period, with her album as an icon of the 2010's youth culture. And in a way, Nevermind is exactly that too. Both albums are also interesting in that they have gone completely mainstream but have an identity rooted in the alternative.

If you ask a hundred people on the street to name five songs by George Michael, Nirvana or Madonna most of them will do that easily. If you ask to name five songs by Billie Eilish, Grimes or Charli XCX only a minority of very young people will be able to do so.
Yes, but the comparison is wrong. Eilish is too young to have five big classics yet, while Grimes had no hits and Charli XCX only one or two. The real public icons with a bit of longer career are Beyoncé, Taylor Swift, Lady Gaga or Katy Perry (even though she seems to have fallen off as of late). People can name many songs by them for sure. I'm not sure how hip hop/ R&B figures into this. Despite all the respect and succes for Kanye West, Kendrick Lamar and Drake I have a feeling that still quite a large of the demographics ignore their music, especially older people.
I have my doubts whether this is really the Golden Age of women artists, because there have been many of them in every decade, although they often didn't get the critical recognition. I have also seen decade lists with forty-nine men and PJ Harvey, which doesn't strike me as very progressive.
I don't know, such a list with 49 men is clearly not the standard; most have plenty of women. If we look at the decade consensus list here on AM there are a lot of women and I think certainly more than in previous decades (their glory is sadly somewhat overshadowed by the fact that Kanye West, Frank Ocean and Kendrick Lamar are at the top with 2 albums each). Pure pop is definitely dominated by women, but also in the more alternative scenes they are a strong force. I'm not sure if Golden Age is the right word, but we seem to be getting there. Just compare it to the "revolutionary" sixties, were we had a few big names like Aretha Franklin, Janis Joplin, Tina Turner (still with Ike), Diana Ross and a lot of anonymous girl groups mostly overseen by Phil Spector. After that you have to dig deeper, with Laura Nyro, Joan Baez and even Joni Mitchell being more on the sidelines of the mainstream. These times are certainly far past us.
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Re: Discussion Regarding When We All Fall Asleep, Where Do We Go?

Post by Jirin »

I’ll have to listen to it again, I found it middling the first time.

I’m not sure it’s possible for there to be a Nirvana in the age where everybody is listening to their own niche and it isn’t hugely expensive to experiment with a ton of different music.

In the 90s buying music was so cost prohibitive lots of people just bought what was featured the most on radio and MTV, so it was an environment friendly to creating music icons. Now I don’t know. Just like it’s impossible for any show to get the ratings Seinfeld did.
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Re: Discussion Regarding When We All Fall Asleep, Where Do We Go?

Post by Jirin »

Just listened again. Yeah, it’s fine, it has some good singles. But can’t see much setting it apart from contemporary pop besides the whispery singing.

Subjective quality judgments aside part of what made Nirvana iconic was their music represented a rebellion against the overly glossy rock of the time. This feels more like it’s carving out its own corner of popular music rather than rebelling against what’s already there. It’s not in the cultural area of the anti-establishment stripped down energy of stuff like punk and grunge.
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Re: Discussion Regarding When We All Fall Asleep, Where Do We Go?

Post by bonnielaurel »

Rob wrote: Tue Feb 04, 2020 10:50 am
If you ask a hundred people on the street to name five songs by George Michael, Nirvana or Madonna most of them will do that easily. If you ask to name five songs by Billie Eilish, Grimes or Charli XCX only a minority of very young people will be able to do so.
Yes, but the comparison is wrong. Eilish is too young to have five big classics yet, while Grimes had no hits and Charli XCX only one or two. The real public icons with a bit of longer career are Beyoncé, Taylor Swift, Lady Gaga or Katy Perry (even though she seems to have fallen off as of late). People can name many songs by them for sure. I'm not sure how hip hop/ R&B figures into this. Despite all the respect and succes for Kanye West, Kendrick Lamar and Drake I have a feeling that still quite a large of the demographics ignore their music, especially older people.
I agree with your points. You're right that Beyoncé, Taylor Swift and Lady Gaga (also Adèle) have reached a wider audience than the ones I mentioned. It's hard to believe that the era of popular music videos on television is gone. On the BBC quiz Pointless hits from the seventies and eighties are always recognized by more people than hits from the current century, but I guess the average age of the test group is over forty.

It's true that women tend to get more acclaim than in the past, but on RYM I can only see Weyes Blood and Joanna Newsom in the top 40 of the decade. Fortunately AM does better with three female lead singers in the top 20.
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Re: Discussion Regarding When We All Fall Asleep, Where Do We Go?

Post by Rob »

bonnielaurel wrote: Tue Feb 04, 2020 7:51 pm It's hard to believe that the era of popular music videos on television is gone.
Yes, but that area has moved to YouTube and other video sharing sites. It can still make a hit. Perhaps not as frequently, but acclaimed hits like This Is America sometimes still get recognition through video first.
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Re: Discussion Regarding When We All Fall Asleep, Where Do We Go?

Post by Jackson »

While most people seem to have big opinions on Billie I fall somewhere in the middle. Having just revisited the album for the first time in a while, I don't think it's generation-defining music and think it's a little critically overblown, but it's still a pleasant listen and I can see why it's so popular. The songs Bad Guy, Bury a Friend, and You Should See Me in a Crown really stand out to me ahead of the rest of the album; the slower material doesn't really grab me given her limited vocals.
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