70's Poll Planning & Discussion

Post Reply
User avatar
Listyguy
Die Mensch Maschine
Posts: 2214
Joined: Sun Feb 05, 2012 8:34 pm

70's Poll Planning & Discussion

Post by Listyguy » Mon Jan 06, 2020 1:38 am

In this thread, we voted to makes the 70s our next decade poll and I later volunteered to host the 70s poll later in that thread. I wanted to discuss a few details of this poll to see what the opinions on the forum were.

Schedule
This is pretty much already set in stone: start in February with 1970, one month per year until we hit November for 1979. Then the final poll voting will take place in December/next January.

Monthly Point System
This year, Moonbeam would give points to an infinite number of songs/albums on individual lists. He used this formula:

Code: Select all

300/(rank + 2)
In addition to the fact that I don't have enough time to tabulate that magnitude of lists, I'm not sure if counting votes that far down individual lists improves the results. It's worth discussing, in my opinion. Historically, individual's top 15 from monthly lists were tabulated in this fashion:

Code: Select all

Place  Points
1	50
2	40
3	30
4	20
5	15
6	10
7	9
8	8
9	7
10	6
11	5
12	4
13	3
14	2
15	1
I'm open to expanding the number from 15 to 20 or perhaps 25, if we can find a balanced formula. I've been tinkering around with this and this is the best I've come up with for a top 20:

Code: Select all

Place  Points
1	75
2	60
3	50
4	45
5	40
6	35
7	30
8	25
9	20
10	15
11	10
12	9
13	8
14	7
15	6
16	5
17	4
18	3
19	2
20	1
Qualifying For Final Poll
Moonbeam expanded our typical top 150s to 200 albums and 300 songs this year. It may be too soon to tell, but there is definitely a little bit of concern that this will lead to less lists (or at least less complete lists) being submitted. And, again, I don't know if I'll have the kind of time to do a top 200/300 result at this time next year. As in years past, I was thinking we stick with letting the top 10 each month automatically qualify for the final poll, and then the other 50 are wild cards. I liked how the wild cards were determined this year (instead of using raw point values, the points were normalized based on the number of lists submitted in a given year). So I'm leaning strongly towards keeping that system in place.

If Others Want to Help/Take Over, Speak Up
I'm not married to handling this poll. Ultimately, I just want to have the best poll possible. And if that means letting somebody with more free time run it instead of me, I'm fine with that.


That's all I can think of for now, I would love to hear some input from the forum!

User avatar
Holden
Different Class
Posts: 326
Joined: Wed Nov 20, 2019 11:06 pm

Re: 70's Poll Planning & Discussion

Post by Holden » Mon Jan 06, 2020 3:46 am

I think it might be interesting to have someone host it each month and have it be different? I’d definitely be willing to host at least one month if not more but like I wouldn’t want to do the final rollout
"I wouldn't trade one stupid decision for another five years of life."
Current Top 50 Albums: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/ ... sp=sharing

User avatar
Sweepstakes Ron
Die Mensch Maschine
Posts: 2117
Joined: Sat May 18, 2013 3:32 pm
Location: Here, There, and Everywhere

Re: 70's Poll Planning & Discussion

Post by Sweepstakes Ron » Mon Jan 06, 2020 4:13 am

Holden wrote:
Mon Jan 06, 2020 3:46 am
I think it might be interesting to have someone host it each month and have it be different? I’d definitely be willing to host at least one month if not more but like I wouldn’t want to do the final rollout
I feel like it would make more sense for a single person to oversee it in regards to the whole "pointing out whether a song is listed in the correct year" aspect.
"Music is powerful, man. It speaks to a primal pit in our brains. It makes anyone want to get up and get their knees going!"
— Jake the Dog

User avatar
Father2TheMan
Let's Get It On
Posts: 195
Joined: Sat May 27, 2017 8:40 am

Re: 70's Poll Planning & Discussion

Post by Father2TheMan » Mon Jan 06, 2020 6:53 pm

I will go with whatever the majority of the folks want re:what is automatic/wild card and what isn't.

Honestly the big draw for me in these polls are the more interesting choices farther down on the lists. For the most part, I know how I feel about the "big 20-25" usual suspects any given year and just have minor fluctuations. I'm not likely to suddenly enjoy a forum favourite I don't "get" or abandon a long-time personal favourite where I stand alone.

But I usually pick up some songs here and there. That's why I participate. :music-listening:
"The laughs come hard in Old Lang Syne....."

Brad
Die Mensch Maschine
Posts: 3010
Joined: Thu Feb 09, 2012 10:38 pm

Re: 70's Poll Planning & Discussion

Post by Brad » Mon Jan 06, 2020 7:07 pm

I agree with Sweepstakes.

User avatar
mileswide
Rust Never Sleeps
Posts: 851
Joined: Wed May 01, 2019 5:08 pm
Location: Nottingham, England

Re: 70's Poll Planning & Discussion

Post by mileswide » Mon Jan 06, 2020 11:07 pm

I can't see everyone completing 200 albums/300 songs for the 70s either, so you're probably right to limit it to 150, Listy
I got nasty habits, I take tea at 3

DaveC
Die Mensch Maschine
Posts: 2210
Joined: Wed Jan 16, 2013 12:04 am

Re: 70's Poll Planning & Discussion

Post by DaveC » Sat Jan 11, 2020 10:27 pm

Happy with top 15 or 20 scoring on lists. 20 at least makes in interesting change, but probably not much difference in results.

Also happy with 100 + 50 wild cards for the final poll as per your suggestion Listy.

Hymie
Die Mensch Maschine
Posts: 2077
Joined: Sat Jun 08, 2013 10:37 pm

Re: 70's Poll Planning & Discussion

Post by Hymie » Sun Jan 12, 2020 5:33 am

If we're only voting for 15 or 20 items there should be a much bigger premium put on just making the list, like this.

1 - 50 points
2 - 44 points
3 - 39 points
4 - 36 points
5 - 33 points
6 - 30 points
7 - 28 points
8 - 26 points
9 - 24 points
10 - 22 points
11 - 20 points
12 - 19 points
13 - 18 points
14 - 17 points
15 - 16 points
16 - 15 points
17 - 14 points
18 - 13 points
19 - 12 points
20 - 11 points

The way that you have it now, #2 gets 3 times as many points as #9, and 4 times as many points as #10. With thousands of songs each year there's got to be a much bigger premium put on just making a voter's list. You have #10 getting 50% more points than #11.

Jirin
Die Mensch Maschine
Posts: 2579
Joined: Fri Feb 10, 2012 4:12 am

Re: 70's Poll Planning & Discussion

Post by Jirin » Sun Jan 12, 2020 10:15 pm

I prefer the sharp drop off because it allows the niche favorites to have a better chance over the ones everyone has already heard.

Hymie
Die Mensch Maschine
Posts: 2077
Joined: Sat Jun 08, 2013 10:37 pm

Re: 70's Poll Planning & Discussion

Post by Hymie » Sun Jan 12, 2020 11:52 pm

Jirin wrote:
Sun Jan 12, 2020 10:15 pm
I prefer the sharp drop off because it allows the niche favorites to have a better chance over the ones everyone has already heard.
Isn't the idea to get an accurate consensus of the group's favorites, rather than having something that just has one first place vote making the list?

User avatar
Listyguy
Die Mensch Maschine
Posts: 2214
Joined: Sun Feb 05, 2012 8:34 pm

Re: 70's Poll Planning & Discussion

Post by Listyguy » Mon Jan 13, 2020 12:15 am

I think ideally we want a blend of the two. Is a song or album that 10 users kind of like (say 10-15 range) more worthy of making our final list than one that 2 or 3 really love? I personally think that the second option is more ideal.

User avatar
Listyguy
Die Mensch Maschine
Posts: 2214
Joined: Sun Feb 05, 2012 8:34 pm

Re: 70's Poll Planning & Discussion

Post by Listyguy » Mon Jan 13, 2020 12:28 am

Here are two other possible point systems for a top 20. Slightly less steep than my original, but still value high votes a lot more than mid-range votes.

Code: Select all

New 1			New 2
Rank Points		Rank Points
1	50		1	50
2	43		2	40
3	36		3	30
4	29		4	25
5	22		5	20
6	20		6	15
7	18		7	14
8	16		8	13
9	14		9	12
10	12		10	11
11	10		11	10
12	9		12	9
13	8		13	8
14	7		14	7
15	6		15	6
16	5		16	5
17	4		17	4
18	3		18	3
19	2		19	2
20	1		20	1

User avatar
andyd1010
Rust Never Sleeps
Posts: 990
Joined: Sun Jun 05, 2016 12:08 am

Re: 70's Poll Planning & Discussion

Post by andyd1010 » Mon Jan 13, 2020 1:21 am

I agree with Hymie that these proposed systems don't value low votes enough. They make a 20th-place vote almost worthless. Top 20 of the year is high praise in my book.

Hymie
Die Mensch Maschine
Posts: 2077
Joined: Sat Jun 08, 2013 10:37 pm

Re: 70's Poll Planning & Discussion

Post by Hymie » Mon Jan 13, 2020 1:38 am

Listyguy wrote:
Mon Jan 13, 2020 12:15 am
I think ideally we want a blend of the two. Is a song or album that 10 users kind of like (say 10-15 range) more worthy of making our final list than one that 2 or 3 really love? I personally think that the second option is more ideal.
I think the second option is insane. A song or album that is in the top 20 of 10 of us is much more significant than a song or album that is top 3 for just 2 or 3 of us. Top 20 is amazing from among thousands of songs and albums that were released in a given year.

Hymie
Die Mensch Maschine
Posts: 2077
Joined: Sat Jun 08, 2013 10:37 pm

Re: 70's Poll Planning & Discussion

Post by Hymie » Mon Jan 13, 2020 1:40 am

Listyguy wrote:
Mon Jan 13, 2020 12:28 am
Here are two other possible point systems for a top 20. Slightly less steep than my original, but still value high votes a lot more than mid-range votes.

Code: Select all

New 1			New 2
Rank Points		Rank Points
1	50		1	50
2	43		2	40
3	36		3	30
4	29		4	25
5	22		5	20
6	20		6	15
7	18		7	14
8	16		8	13
9	14		9	12
10	12		10	11
11	10		11	10
12	9		12	9
13	8		13	8
14	7		14	7
15	6		15	6
16	5		16	5
17	4		17	4
18	3		18	3
19	2		19	2
20	1		20	1
Your problem is with starting at just one point for #20. Start with 11 points for #20. It makes no sense at all for #19 to get twice as many points as #20.

User avatar
Listyguy
Die Mensch Maschine
Posts: 2214
Joined: Sun Feb 05, 2012 8:34 pm

Re: 70's Poll Planning & Discussion

Post by Listyguy » Mon Jan 13, 2020 2:47 am

Hymie wrote:
Mon Jan 13, 2020 1:38 am
Listyguy wrote:
Mon Jan 13, 2020 12:15 am
I think ideally we want a blend of the two. Is a song or album that 10 users kind of like (say 10-15 range) more worthy of making our final list than one that 2 or 3 really love? I personally think that the second option is more ideal.
I think the second option is insane. A song or album that is in the top 20 of 10 of us is much more significant than a song or album that is top 3 for just 2 or 3 of us. Top 20 is amazing from among thousands of songs and albums that were released in a given year.
Why is it insane? If you've heard thousands of albums in a single year, you're in the 99th percentile of all music listeners. Obviously there are voters on the forum who've heard a lot of music, but I doubt that even half of those voting have heard 100 albums from 1970.
Hymie wrote:
Mon Jan 13, 2020 1:40 am
Listyguy wrote:
Mon Jan 13, 2020 12:28 am
Here are two other possible point systems for a top 20. Slightly less steep than my original, but still value high votes a lot more than mid-range votes.

Code: Select all

New 1			New 2
Rank Points		Rank Points
1	50		1	50
2	43		2	40
3	36		3	30
4	29		4	25
5	22		5	20
6	20		6	15
7	18		7	14
8	16		8	13
9	14		9	12
10	12		10	11
11	10		11	10
12	9		12	9
13	8		13	8
14	7		14	7
15	6		15	6
16	5		16	5
17	4		17	4
18	3		18	3
19	2		19	2
20	1		20	1
Your problem is with starting at just one point for #20. Start with 11 points for #20. It makes no sense at all for #19 to get twice as many points as #20.
The number of points doesn't matter. Giving #20 1 point and giving #19 2 points will give the same end result as giving #20 11 points and #19 12 points.

User avatar
andyd1010
Rust Never Sleeps
Posts: 990
Joined: Sun Jun 05, 2016 12:08 am

Re: 70's Poll Planning & Discussion

Post by andyd1010 » Mon Jan 13, 2020 3:18 am

Listyguy wrote:
Mon Jan 13, 2020 2:47 am
Hymie wrote:
Mon Jan 13, 2020 1:38 am
Listyguy wrote:
Mon Jan 13, 2020 12:15 am
I think ideally we want a blend of the two. Is a song or album that 10 users kind of like (say 10-15 range) more worthy of making our final list than one that 2 or 3 really love? I personally think that the second option is more ideal.
I think the second option is insane. A song or album that is in the top 20 of 10 of us is much more significant than a song or album that is top 3 for just 2 or 3 of us. Top 20 is amazing from among thousands of songs and albums that were released in a given year.
Why is it insane? If you've heard thousands of albums in a single year, you're in the 99th percentile of all music listeners. Obviously there are voters on the forum who've heard a lot of music, but I doubt that even half of those voting have heard 100 albums from 1970.
Hymie wrote:
Mon Jan 13, 2020 1:40 am
Listyguy wrote:
Mon Jan 13, 2020 12:28 am
Here are two other possible point systems for a top 20. Slightly less steep than my original, but still value high votes a lot more than mid-range votes.

Code: Select all

New 1			New 2
Rank Points		Rank Points
1	50		1	50
2	43		2	40
3	36		3	30
4	29		4	25
5	22		5	20
6	20		6	15
7	18		7	14
8	16		8	13
9	14		9	12
10	12		10	11
11	10		11	10
12	9		12	9
13	8		13	8
14	7		14	7
15	6		15	6
16	5		16	5
17	4		17	4
18	3		18	3
19	2		19	2
20	1		20	1
Your problem is with starting at just one point for #20. Start with 11 points for #20. It makes no sense at all for #19 to get twice as many points as #20.
The number of points doesn't matter. Giving #20 1 point and giving #19 2 points will give the same end result as giving #20 11 points and #19 12 points.
This is false. If 4 people vote an album 20th, and one person votes another album 17th, those albums are tied by your system. By Hymie's system, the album with 4 votes would be beating the album with one 17th-place vote 44-14, which seems like a much more accurate indication of the forum's taste.

DaveC
Die Mensch Maschine
Posts: 2210
Joined: Wed Jan 16, 2013 12:04 am

Re: 70's Poll Planning & Discussion

Post by DaveC » Mon Jan 13, 2020 4:49 am

Hymies system works if everyone who votes has listened to many songs/albums (so it probably works better for songs than albums). If - for example - you have several folks who have only considered only the AM top 30 albums for the year and are just ranking those, then the final result is heavily biased towards the most well known works and may not truly represent forum tastes - because voters simply haven't heard less well know albums and thus can't express that taste. With these polls, I always listen to some new-to-me albums from others folks lists, but these are too many to listen to them all. I like that albums loved by a few with wider listening than my own (such as yourself Hymie!) are bought to my attention in the decade poll - just ranking the top 150 of the decade from AM would be less interesting. Having said that - I'm don't have strong feelings about this, it's not that important, after all I could make more effort to identify and hear much-loved-by-some albums/songs rather that lazily waiting for the points aggregation to tell me about them. Just highlighting that Listy's logic has merit ( I doubt that I have heard 100 1970 albums in full, but I also doubt that many forumers have heard all my top 20 in full.)

Hymie
Die Mensch Maschine
Posts: 2077
Joined: Sat Jun 08, 2013 10:37 pm

Re: 70's Poll Planning & Discussion

Post by Hymie » Mon Jan 13, 2020 5:13 am

Listyguy wrote:
Mon Jan 13, 2020 2:47 am


The number of points doesn't matter. Giving #20 1 point and giving #19 2 points will give the same end result as giving #20 11 points and #19 12 points.
Of course it matters. In your system if one song has one #17 ranking it gets 4 points while another song with 3 #20 rankings gets just 3 points. If you start with 11 for #20 then the song with 3 #20 rankings has 33 points and the song with one #17 ranking gets 14 points. Surely you would agree that 3 #20 rankings should get more points than one #17 ranking.

You could have 50 voters all put a song #20 and it would still get far fewer points than a song that is only on one ballot, but is #1 on that ballot.

User avatar
Listyguy
Die Mensch Maschine
Posts: 2214
Joined: Sun Feb 05, 2012 8:34 pm

Re: 70's Poll Planning & Discussion

Post by Listyguy » Mon Jan 13, 2020 11:06 am

My point is that the actual number of points do not matter, it's the relative number of points that is important. In both my system and yours, the raw point differences are the same at the bottom of the list.

And really, if a song isn't placing above 20 on a list it doesn't matter either way. I'm much more interested in what is st the top of someone's list than what they have ranked at #17.

Hymie
Die Mensch Maschine
Posts: 2077
Joined: Sat Jun 08, 2013 10:37 pm

Re: 70's Poll Planning & Discussion

Post by Hymie » Mon Jan 13, 2020 1:53 pm

Listyguy wrote:
Mon Jan 13, 2020 11:06 am
My point is that the actual number of points do not matter, it's the relative number of points that is important. In both my system and yours, the raw point differences are the same at the bottom of the list.
They do matter. And #20 is a great slot among all records from a year.

Once again, in your system 5 #20 ratings are worth fewer points than one #14 rating. That's not mathematically sound.

User avatar
Rocky Raccoon
Different Class
Posts: 326
Joined: Fri Feb 24, 2012 12:30 am
Location: Seattle area

Re: 70's Poll Planning & Discussion

Post by Rocky Raccoon » Mon Jan 13, 2020 9:25 pm

How about this as a balance. In this instance, Ten 20 place votes = One 1st place vote. Two 7th place votes = One 1st place vote. Two 10th place votes = One 5th place vote, and so on throughout the list. Seems fair while still rewarding high-placing albums/songs.

1. 50 pts.
2. 45
3. 40
4. 36
5. 32
6. 28
7. 25
8. 22
9. 19
10. 16
11. 14
12. 13
13. 12
14. 11
15. 10
16. 9
17. 8
18. 7
19. 6
20. 5

Hymie
Die Mensch Maschine
Posts: 2077
Joined: Sat Jun 08, 2013 10:37 pm

Re: 70's Poll Planning & Discussion

Post by Hymie » Mon Jan 13, 2020 10:11 pm

Rocky Raccoon wrote:
Mon Jan 13, 2020 9:25 pm
How about this as a balance. In this instance, Ten 20 place votes = One 1st place vote. Two 7th place votes = One 1st place vote. Two 10th place votes = One 5th place vote, and so on throughout the list. Seems fair while still rewarding high-placing albums/songs.

1. 50 pts.
2. 45
3. 40
4. 36
5. 32
6. 28
7. 25
8. 22
9. 19
10. 16
11. 14
12. 13
13. 12
14. 11
15. 10
16. 9
17. 8
18. 7
19. 6
20. 5
This is a reasonable compromise, thanks.

User avatar
Listyguy
Die Mensch Maschine
Posts: 2214
Joined: Sun Feb 05, 2012 8:34 pm

Re: 70's Poll Planning & Discussion

Post by Listyguy » Tue Jan 14, 2020 12:21 am

Rocky Raccoon wrote:
Mon Jan 13, 2020 9:25 pm
How about this as a balance. In this instance, Ten 20 place votes = One 1st place vote. Two 7th place votes = One 1st place vote. Two 10th place votes = One 5th place vote, and so on throughout the list. Seems fair while still rewarding high-placing albums/songs.
This looks good to me as well, thanks Rocky!

Hymie
Die Mensch Maschine
Posts: 2077
Joined: Sat Jun 08, 2013 10:37 pm

Re: 70's Poll Planning & Discussion

Post by Hymie » Tue Jan 14, 2020 2:41 am

Listyguy wrote:
Tue Jan 14, 2020 12:21 am
Rocky Raccoon wrote:
Mon Jan 13, 2020 9:25 pm
How about this as a balance. In this instance, Ten 20 place votes = One 1st place vote. Two 7th place votes = One 1st place vote. Two 10th place votes = One 5th place vote, and so on throughout the list. Seems fair while still rewarding high-placing albums/songs.
This looks good to me as well, thanks Rocky!
Glad this is settled. I'll be watching the 1970 ballots for correct years. I just did the 1970 album tracks playlist, so I know which albums AND songs belong in that year.

Post Reply