Discussion thread for 1982 Michael Jackson, Leaving Neverland

Post Reply
User avatar
Live in Phoenix
Die Mensch Maschine
Posts: 1078
Joined: Wed Jan 02, 2013 12:50 am

Discussion thread for 1982 Michael Jackson, Leaving Neverland

Post by Live in Phoenix » Thu Apr 04, 2019 3:52 am

I had thought about creating this a while ago... I feel like otherwise this discussion could take up a lot of space in the 1982 poll, but at the same time, I want people to go on about this as much as they feel is necessary.

I'll weigh in now, too, not that it's that compelling. I plan on voting for Thriller, Billie Jean, etc. as normal, assuming even the worst. Basically my all-time song and album lists have him and other 1982 artists all lined up for their respective rankings. I can't tell other people how to feel about MJ, and I don't think there is necessarily a "right" way to approach this. In fact, assuming the worst, I think of it as a horrid decision either way. I guess I ruled that I am stuck liking the songs that I've already liked for so long, and stuck evaluating musicians like it's a talent show without regard to how horrible they may or may not be offstage. I don't definitely know that MJ is a molester (not that it's looking good). I haven't seen Leaving Neverland -- although it seems to have accomplished what years' and decades' worth of accusations could not, and change public opinion about him (see also R. Kelly and Surviving R. Kelly).

As far as how I might personally relate to underage sex abuse, I don't personally know anyone who has experienced it. I work at the juvenile bureau of a prosecution office, and lately chances are that sometime during the week, I'm going over audio and/or video regarding cases where kids have been molested (by slightly older kids, who have sometimes been molested themselves). I'm going to have a daughter this summer, and I think it's horrid that in a matter of years, I'll have to start thinking to an extent about her being potential prey.

As you might imagine, MJ has had some defenders. For what it's worth, here are a couple:

Jackson Family Members Speak Out Against ‘Leaving Neverland’ Doc: ‘It’s About the Money’
https://www.rollingstone.com/music/musi ... oc-801258/

Instagram post by rapper T.I.
“Let this man speak for himself to defend his legacy,” T.I. writes in the caption. “Don’t just listen to one side and expect to find truth. Oh that’s right… Dead men can’t speak. So what was the point again? Destroy another strong black historical LEGEND?!?! It’s several examples of pedophilia in American History… if y’all pulling up all our old shit… we gotta examine ELVIS PRESLEY, HUGH HEPHNER, and a whole slew of others guilty of the same if not more!!! BUT WHY US all the time? There’s an agenda to destroy OUR CULTURE.”
Just to ruin everyone's day (and I'm sure this isn't the only article like this out there, even if we're not quite talking about little boys or girls)
11 Rock Stars Who Allegedly Slept With Underage Girls
https://www.phoenixnewtimes.com/music/1 ... ls-7980930

User avatar
Live in Phoenix
Die Mensch Maschine
Posts: 1078
Joined: Wed Jan 02, 2013 12:50 am

Re: Discussion thread for 1982 Michael Jackson, Leaving Neverland

Post by Live in Phoenix » Thu Apr 04, 2019 4:42 am

Here's a sample review of the documentary

Leaving Neverland May Do What No Other Michael Jackson Exposé Could
https://www.vanityfair.com/hollywood/20 ... llegations

User avatar
acroamor
Unquestionable Presence
Posts: 598
Joined: Sun Apr 15, 2012 3:16 pm
Location: Atlanta, GA

Re: Discussion thread for 1982 Michael Jackson, Leaving Neverland

Post by acroamor » Thu Apr 04, 2019 5:16 am

Whew, kudos for raising a difficult point. I've recently had this same reaction to many other artists - whether or not to give them support, particularly in any sort of public forum. For example, I was considering getting very into the artist Brand New right when the Jesse Lacey allegations dropped which very much stymied that attempt for me, but I still do enjoy what I've heard (primarily the song "Jesus"). Whereas the allegations against Michael Gira have completely stopped me from engaging with Swans, even though I don't know if I particularly cared for those songs as well. I will say that I find that the current rise of female musicians in the music press is connected to this same issue, out of possible fear of championing a male artist with a less-than-ideal past. (Of course, not to say that these female artists are undeserving, I personally listen to primarily women when it comes to new releases.)

So I don't really have a good answer. I feel as though instances where the artist is dead or otherwise not releasing music (Jackson, Bowie, Berry, Wagner, Spector, Bambaataa), supporting them is not necessarily a problem. But when someone enables the actions of a living person who actively creates a worse environment for the industry and for humanity in general (Kelly, Ryan Adams), continued support actively hurts the cultural reckoning that's happening that is generally improving quality of life for humanity as a whole.

Jackson
Rust Never Sleeps
Posts: 981
Joined: Sun Feb 12, 2012 6:05 am
Location: Los Angeles

Re: Discussion thread for 1982 Michael Jackson, Leaving Neverland

Post by Jackson » Thu Apr 04, 2019 5:42 am

I'm generally partial to the "separate the art from the artist" argument. It would be very difficult to operate otherwise: do you have to look up every artist you like to see if there is alleged or known misbehavior? Is it fair to hold current artists to a different standard than artists from the past (given allegations against more recent artists are much more likely to come to light)? How bad does behavior have to be to warrant not listening to an artist or jettisoning an artist from your list? Does it have to be "proven" or can mere allegations do it? What if an artist just has views you find abhorrent but didn't commit a crime?

There are no easy answers to these questions, and I wouldn't hold it against anyone who finds it difficult to listen to MJ now. Personally, I generally do not boycott artists with alleged misbehavior.

User avatar
Pierre
Die Mensch Maschine
Posts: 1869
Joined: Sat Mar 10, 2012 8:21 pm

Re: Discussion thread for 1982 Michael Jackson, Leaving Neverland

Post by Pierre » Thu Apr 04, 2019 6:24 am

Strangely enough, that debate has been raging in France in the last few years when Bertrand Cantat, frontman of Noir Désir, wished to resume his career after serving his sentence for Marie Trintignant's murder. The reaction was frankly hostile to say the least, and he had a difficult time completing his tour and distributing his record, especially as more alleged misconducts toward women started to surface. It's really striking, as Noir Désir's songs are as famous and influential as Michael Jackson's here in France.

Whenever such issues are brought up, I think of François Villon. He's a XVth Century French poet and songwriter who has gone down in history as an assassin, burglar, thief and overall "person of bad living". Yet singers in France are still covering his stuff and he's considered one of the greatest poets of all time. I can't tell people how to feel about Michael Jackson, R. Kelly or Bertrand Cantat, but what I know is that in the XXVIIth Century, if there are still people around to remember them, it will most likely be for their music and the rest will have become folklore, regardless of the pain of the victims and their families right now. If that can help people with their perspective...

User avatar
PlasticRam
Die Mensch Maschine
Posts: 1929
Joined: Tue Feb 05, 2013 12:51 am

Re: Discussion thread for 1982 Michael Jackson, Leaving Neverland

Post by PlasticRam » Thu Apr 04, 2019 9:50 am

The alleged victims seem very convincing.

I am of the opinion that I separate the art from the artist. Like I Believe I Can Fly is a great, empowering song and nothing's gonna change that. Same with MJ's songs.
I feel like that

User avatar
Listyguy
Die Mensch Maschine
Posts: 2123
Joined: Sun Feb 05, 2012 8:34 pm

Re: Discussion thread for 1982 Michael Jackson, Leaving Neverland

Post by Listyguy » Thu Apr 04, 2019 10:04 am

Is anyone actually surprised by the Jackson allegations? I was under the impression they were public knowledge (MJ was a punchline because of them, among other things, before he died).

With that said, I agree with what some others have said in that I don't evaluate the music I listen to based on the artists' moral compass. If I did, I'd probably have to cut out a large chunk of what I listen to.

Jap123
Let's Get It On
Posts: 110
Joined: Tue Mar 15, 2016 6:42 pm

Re: Discussion thread for 1982 Michael Jackson, Leaving Neverland

Post by Jap123 » Thu Apr 04, 2019 12:36 pm

I'm pretty sure the Michael Gira allegations were proven false, but may be wrong on that one. And i think everyone knew or suspected the Jackson stuff way before this documentary (even way before he died) because of the general creepy nature of how many kids he kept around him all the time and the fake-seeming 'nice' public persona.

Jirin
Die Mensch Maschine
Posts: 2460
Joined: Fri Feb 10, 2012 4:12 am

Re: Discussion thread for 1982 Michael Jackson, Leaving Neverland

Post by Jirin » Thu Apr 04, 2019 1:54 pm

I think since Michael Jackson is dead and can no longer profit from his music, it’s cut and dry to separate the art from the artist. It’s not the music’s fault.

On a side note, I think there is a huge difference between molesting a 12 year old and having consensual sex with a 17 year old.

This discussion also makes me think of a novel called Nazi Literature In the Americas. It’s essentially a fake biography of made up Nazi writers from the perspective of a literary critic who despises Naziism but intellectually loves their writing. And toward the end explores how much you can really separate the two.

The conclusion I have to come to is ‘Depends if anyone is still being hurt’. In MJ’s case, guy’s dead.

Harold
Die Mensch Maschine
Posts: 1937
Joined: Fri Feb 10, 2012 3:56 pm

Re: Discussion thread for 1982 Michael Jackson, Leaving Neverland

Post by Harold » Thu Apr 04, 2019 1:56 pm

Jap123 wrote:I'm pretty sure the Michael Gira allegations were proven false, but may be wrong on that one. And i think everyone knew or suspected the Jackson stuff way before this documentary (even way before he died) because of the general creepy nature of how many kids he kept around him all the time and the fake-seeming 'nice' public persona.
This is the part I don't get. As most of the posts here indicate, it's not like we didn't already know about Jackson's proclivities. As far back as the late 1990s, I remember Norm Macdonald on Saturday Night Live's Weekend Update remarking on a story about a hospitalized Jackson decorating his room with giant photos of Shirley Temple; he cautioned viewers, "Don't let this give you the wrong idea - Michael Jackson remains, as he always has been, a homosexual pedophile." This has been out there for a long, long time. But his reputation is finally taking a huge hit now, just because there's a documentary that describes all of the specifics in excruciating detail? So people needed the details to finally decide to turn against him? What did they think the allegations have implied all these years?

I'm generally in agreement with the argument for separating artist from art. However, that doesn't mean that when I hear a piece of music or see a film/TV show made by someone who has had credible allegations brought against them, it's going to be possible for me to forget about that. As much as I love The Usual Suspects, if I ever watch it again it's going to be difficult not to think about what Bryan Singer and Kevin Spacey have "allegedly" done.

Cold Butterfly
Let's Get It On
Posts: 174
Joined: Sun Dec 09, 2018 2:28 am
Location: Ashburn, Virginia

Re: Discussion thread for 1982 Michael Jackson, Leaving Neverland

Post by Cold Butterfly » Thu Apr 04, 2019 3:27 pm

When I woke up this morning I went on the forum and saw this thread. I'm glad that people are willing to have a conversation about sexual abuse, and examine the "man behind the mirror".

Although I instigated this discussion about Jackson, i'm really regretting making that post honestly. I was in a really shitty mood last night, and I really don't think (looking back on it) it was necessary talking about my personal history on a music forum. But thanks to everyone who reached out to me, i'm fine and I carried on with my life quite a while ago.

I saw all these arguments about "separating the person from the art", and taking that into account I spent my entire study hall period listening to Thriller again. Although lately I felt uncomfortable and a bit edgy listening to Jackson's music, this time when I listened to the whole album it felt extremely refreshing, and I found myself being reminded of why I always loved the album (maybe it was the nice weather lol). I didn't think I could feel happy listening to Jackson again, but it's safe to say now that after reading all this, i've returned to an enjoyable plain listening to Thriller. Which means it's probably gonna return to the top spot on my personal albums list for '82.

Just because I (and others) enjoy his music however doesn't justify what he allegedly did, however. Although "Thriller" has become a personal favorite again, you ultimately end up having to remember the character who made the great art. Just because it's a masterpiece doesn't mean the person behind it lives up to the standards of his/her's creations. So while "Thriller" is great, and a landmark work without a doubt, you have to remember that. And it's not just for him too. You have to remember that Page and Bowie committed statutory rape too every time you listen to Hunky Dory or Led Zeppelin IV, however great those albums might be. Most people would rot in jail for the things they did, and the effects from sexual abuse can (obviously) be lifelasting. The incident that I spoke about has affected my friendships/relationships with women, and my character in general. Not many people are victims, but the ones who are need to have their voices heard.

To everyone willing to have a discussion about this however uncomfortable and scary it might be, kudos to you.

User avatar
Bruno
Die Mensch Maschine
Posts: 1300
Joined: Sun Feb 19, 2012 1:33 pm
Location: São Paulo, Brasil
Contact:

Re: Discussion thread for 1982 Michael Jackson, Leaving Neverland

Post by Bruno » Thu Apr 04, 2019 4:03 pm

I'm probably one of MJ's biggest fans here and I mean I respect all opinions on that particular subject. Everyone here has the right to set out their views on the case.

But I always say that when trying to make some judgment, I believe the best thing to do is to see and research both sides of the story.

As a fan for more than two decades accompanying everything about Michael's career (artistically and his personal life), I can safely say that I never believed the content of the allegations.

I understand who thinks the opposite and believes the accusers, but I never believed in any accusation.

About "separating the person from the art", I totally agree. One thing has nothing to do with the other and this does not fit my criteria when listening or evaluating an art, be it music, films or books.

Jirin
Die Mensch Maschine
Posts: 2460
Joined: Fri Feb 10, 2012 4:12 am

Re: Discussion thread for 1982 Michael Jackson, Leaving Neverland

Post by Jirin » Thu Apr 04, 2019 6:44 pm

PlasticRam wrote:The alleged victims seem very convincing.

I am of the opinion that I separate the art from the artist. Like I Believe I Can Fly is a great, empowering song and nothing's gonna change that. Same with MJ's songs.
To me that song is a pandering schmaltz bomb, but that opinion was not changed by the allegations. :)

I think that with the previous MJ allegations a lot of people believed the story that MJ has a Peter Pan complex due to his upbringing and a ‘sleepover’ where he was trying to live out a normal childhood was misinterpreted by concerned parents as molestation.

However with more and more reports coming out, that explanation loses weight.

Just like with sexual assault allegations you kind of have to go by the heuristic that the more people who come out saying the same thing the less plausible it gets that ALL of them are lying.

User avatar
prosecutorgodot
Rust Never Sleeps
Posts: 923
Joined: Tue Apr 14, 2015 5:53 am
Location: SF Bay Area, California

Re: Discussion thread for 1982 Michael Jackson, Leaving Neverland

Post by prosecutorgodot » Thu Apr 04, 2019 7:29 pm

MJ was definitely a weird guy (I more or less side with the theory of a kid without a childhood), but I don't think he was someone with evil intentions.

Here's a rebuttal of MJ accusations.
The realest feel - "I can't sleep, it's too hot."

User avatar
StevieFan13
Die Mensch Maschine
Posts: 4372
Joined: Mon Jan 02, 2017 5:00 pm
Location: New York, New York
Contact:

Re: Discussion thread for 1982 Michael Jackson, Leaving Neverland

Post by StevieFan13 » Thu Apr 04, 2019 8:04 pm

I believe the accusations but I’m very nervous to actually watch the doc.
Music is a world within itself, with a language we all understand - Sir Duke (1976)

User avatar
StevieFan13
Die Mensch Maschine
Posts: 4372
Joined: Mon Jan 02, 2017 5:00 pm
Location: New York, New York
Contact:

Re: Discussion thread for 1982 Michael Jackson, Leaving Neverland

Post by StevieFan13 » Thu Apr 04, 2019 8:05 pm

Most of the artists that have been accused of horrific things recently or not are ones I’ve fortunately never gotten into, but MJ is very different. I will say listening to him felt a bit weird even before this all blew up, but now it’s near impossible.
Music is a world within itself, with a language we all understand - Sir Duke (1976)

Cold Butterfly
Let's Get It On
Posts: 174
Joined: Sun Dec 09, 2018 2:28 am
Location: Ashburn, Virginia

Re: Discussion thread for 1982 Michael Jackson, Leaving Neverland

Post by Cold Butterfly » Thu Apr 04, 2019 9:03 pm

StevieFan13 wrote:I believe the accusations but I’m very nervous to actually watch the doc.
The documentary is honestly heartbreaking to watch...But it’s ultimately powering in it’s discussion on the effects of child sexual abuse, and for some sadly relatable.

It might be an “allegation”, but with so many people coming forward to say MJ did these things, it’s apalling that some people think otherwise.

Cold Butterfly
Let's Get It On
Posts: 174
Joined: Sun Dec 09, 2018 2:28 am
Location: Ashburn, Virginia

Re: Discussion thread for 1982 Michael Jackson, Leaving Neverland

Post by Cold Butterfly » Thu Apr 04, 2019 9:09 pm

prosecutorgodot wrote:MJ was definitely a weird guy (I more or less side with the theory of a kid without a childhood), but I don't think he was someone with evil intentions.

So molesting a kid isn’t an evil intention? This whole “Peter Pan” theory is bullshit to me, when these actions supposedly took place he was a grown ass man. I know Jackson had a difficult childhood that no young human being should ever experience, but he knew what he was doing.

User avatar
babydoll
Rust Never Sleeps
Posts: 956
Joined: Tue Feb 16, 2016 7:07 pm

Re: Discussion thread for 1982 Michael Jackson, Leaving Neverland

Post by babydoll » Thu Apr 04, 2019 9:49 pm

Maybe it's just me, but I've always had this detached image of celebrities in general (movie stars, singers, quarterbacks, etc.). While it's always appalling when someone does bad things - and I long ago reconciled with the fact that MJ probably did abuse these children - whenever, I listen to Thriller, I don't think of Michael, really, but the music. (That view does extend to other areas of entertainment, for the record.) It's kind of impossible to explain it, but when I listen to "Beat It", I don't think of MJ the celebrity, I'm just enjoying the song. When I watched a couple episodes of The Cosby Show last year, I was a little creeped out by the fact that Dr. Huxtable is a OB/GYN but ultimately enjoyed the show like I used to. (Plus Bill Cosby always did creep me out.) I understand if people have a difficult time separating the artist from the art, but I personally think it'd be unhealthy for me to not separate art from the artist in general. I also think I'm too goddamn cynical in nature.

What I do find a little annoying is that Michael Jackson is being "cancelled" after twenty-five years.

Cold Butterfly
Let's Get It On
Posts: 174
Joined: Sun Dec 09, 2018 2:28 am
Location: Ashburn, Virginia

Re: Discussion thread for 1982 Michael Jackson, Leaving Neverland

Post by Cold Butterfly » Thu Apr 04, 2019 9:57 pm

babydoll wrote:Maybe it's just me, but I've always had this detached image of celebrities in general (movie stars, singers, quarterbacks, etc.). While it's always appalling when someone does bad things - and I long ago reconciled with the fact that MJ probably did abuse these children - whenever, I listen to Thriller, I don't think of Michael, really, but the music. (That view does extend to other areas of entertainment, for the record.) It's kind of impossible to explain it, but when I listen to "Beat It", I don't think of MJ the celebrity, I'm just enjoying the song. When I watched a couple episodes of The Cosby Show last year, I was a little creeped out by the fact that Dr. Huxtable is a OB/GYN but ultimately enjoyed the show like I used to. (Plus Bill Cosby always did creep me out.) I understand if people have a difficult time separating the artist from the art, but I personally think it'd be unhealthy for me to not separate art from the artist in general. I also think I'm too goddamn cynical in nature.

What I do find a little annoying is that Michael Jackson is being "cancelled" after twenty-five years.
No one is attempting on this forum to “cancel” Jackson, and I just wanna make sure people are aware of his actions. Many people would agree that Jackson played a pivotal role in the history of popular music, in mine’s and lots of others’ opinion.

The point that I was trying to make was if a not-so-famous guy who wasn’t creative did this, we all know how he would feel. But it’s MJ! You can’t take the fact away from him that he made great music, but you can’t take the fact away from him too that he was most likely a pedophile as well. Same goes for Bowie, Jagger, Pop, Kelly, Lewis, etc.

User avatar
babydoll
Rust Never Sleeps
Posts: 956
Joined: Tue Feb 16, 2016 7:07 pm

Re: Discussion thread for 1982 Michael Jackson, Leaving Neverland

Post by babydoll » Thu Apr 04, 2019 10:10 pm

Cold Butterfly wrote:
babydoll wrote:Maybe it's just me, but I've always had this detached image of celebrities in general (movie stars, singers, quarterbacks, etc.). While it's always appalling when someone does bad things - and I long ago reconciled with the fact that MJ probably did abuse these children - whenever, I listen to Thriller, I don't think of Michael, really, but the music. (That view does extend to other areas of entertainment, for the record.) It's kind of impossible to explain it, but when I listen to "Beat It", I don't think of MJ the celebrity, I'm just enjoying the song. When I watched a couple episodes of The Cosby Show last year, I was a little creeped out by the fact that Dr. Huxtable is a OB/GYN but ultimately enjoyed the show like I used to. (Plus Bill Cosby always did creep me out.) I understand if people have a difficult time separating the artist from the art, but I personally think it'd be unhealthy for me to not separate art from the artist in general. I also think I'm too goddamn cynical in nature.

What I do find a little annoying is that Michael Jackson is being "cancelled" after twenty-five years.
No one is attempting on this forum to “cancel” Jackson, and I just wanna make sure people are aware of his actions. Many people would agree that Jackson played a pivotal role in the history of popular music, in mine’s and lots of others’ opinion.

The point that I was trying to make was if a not-so-famous guy who wasn’t creative did this, we all know how he would feel. But it’s MJ! You can’t take the fact away from him that he made great music, but you can’t take the fact away from him too that he was most likely a pedophile as well. Same goes for Bowie, Jagger, Pop, Kelly, Lewis, etc.
The sentence was actually more directed towards the general public and not specifically towards you guys. Sorry if that was unclear.

User avatar
Bruno
Die Mensch Maschine
Posts: 1300
Joined: Sun Feb 19, 2012 1:33 pm
Location: São Paulo, Brasil
Contact:

Re: Discussion thread for 1982 Michael Jackson, Leaving Neverland

Post by Bruno » Thu Apr 04, 2019 10:16 pm


User avatar
Bruno
Die Mensch Maschine
Posts: 1300
Joined: Sun Feb 19, 2012 1:33 pm
Location: São Paulo, Brasil
Contact:

Re: Discussion thread for 1982 Michael Jackson, Leaving Neverland

Post by Bruno » Thu Apr 04, 2019 10:21 pm

"Money" gets more relevant each day:

https://youtu.be/stM8TJK-Zi0

Cold Butterfly
Let's Get It On
Posts: 174
Joined: Sun Dec 09, 2018 2:28 am
Location: Ashburn, Virginia

Re: Discussion thread for 1982 Michael Jackson, Leaving Neverland

Post by Cold Butterfly » Thu Apr 04, 2019 11:10 pm

Bruno wrote:"Money" gets more relevant each day:

https://youtu.be/stM8TJK-Zi0
As i've said before, i don't know if the allegations are true or not. All I know is that i'm always going to be iffy when listening to music that was made by someone who may or may not have done some fucked up things to people. Especially with my personal history concerning this.

Cold Butterfly
Let's Get It On
Posts: 174
Joined: Sun Dec 09, 2018 2:28 am
Location: Ashburn, Virginia

Re: Discussion thread for 1982 Michael Jackson, Leaving Neverland

Post by Cold Butterfly » Thu Apr 04, 2019 11:29 pm

Also keep in mind that victims of trauma are sometimes likely to forget certain dates and events of what happened. To say that he's just putting out stuff for "money" which is what you are implying is an age-old stereotype about sexual assault allegations against people of power. That view has been used for so long to discredit such allegations, and it encourages sexual assault victims to stay quiet. I get that you love MJ, but what you were implying severely crosses the line, and it saddens me that as a victim, this view is being stated on the forum.

User avatar
Bruno
Die Mensch Maschine
Posts: 1300
Joined: Sun Feb 19, 2012 1:33 pm
Location: São Paulo, Brasil
Contact:

Re: Discussion thread for 1982 Michael Jackson, Leaving Neverland

Post by Bruno » Fri Apr 05, 2019 12:05 am

Cold Butterfly wrote:Also keep in mind that victims of trauma are sometimes likely to forget certain dates and events of what happened. To say that he's just putting out stuff for "money" which is what you are implying is an age-old stereotype about sexual assault allegations against people of power. That view has been used for so long to discredit such allegations, and it encourages sexual assault victims to stay quiet. I get that you love MJ, but what you were implying severely crosses the line, and it saddens me that as a victim, this view is being stated on the forum.
I'm sorry for your story and I'm happy for your recovery. My posts were exclusively focused on this case specifically, not to generalize.

It was never my intention to set you that way, my sincere apologies.

Cold Butterfly
Let's Get It On
Posts: 174
Joined: Sun Dec 09, 2018 2:28 am
Location: Ashburn, Virginia

Re: Discussion thread for 1982 Michael Jackson, Leaving Neverland

Post by Cold Butterfly » Fri Apr 05, 2019 12:53 am

Bruno wrote:
Cold Butterfly wrote:Also keep in mind that victims of trauma are sometimes likely to forget certain dates and events of what happened. To say that he's just putting out stuff for "money" which is what you are implying is an age-old stereotype about sexual assault allegations against people of power. That view has been used for so long to discredit such allegations, and it encourages sexual assault victims to stay quiet. I get that you love MJ, but what you were implying severely crosses the line, and it saddens me that as a victim, this view is being stated on the forum.
I'm sorry for your story and I'm happy for your recovery. My posts were exclusively focused on this case specifically, not to generalize.

It was never my intention to set you that way, my sincere apologies.
I understand, and no problem.

Jirin
Die Mensch Maschine
Posts: 2460
Joined: Fri Feb 10, 2012 4:12 am

Re: Discussion thread for 1982 Michael Jackson, Leaving Neverland

Post by Jirin » Fri Apr 05, 2019 2:14 pm

Aren’t the accusations against the other artists you mentioned more along the line of consensual sex with teenage fans?

It’s legally statutory rape depending on country and not morally acceptable but I would never place them in the same category as the allegations against MJ.

User avatar
madzong
Different Class
Posts: 450
Joined: Fri Jan 11, 2013 7:36 am
Location: New Zealand

Re: Discussion thread for 1982 Michael Jackson, Leaving Neverland

Post by madzong » Fri Apr 05, 2019 2:31 pm

Jirin wrote:Aren’t the accusations against the other artists you mentioned more along the line of consensual sex with teenage fans?

It’s legally statutory rape depending on country and not morally acceptable but I would never place them in the same category as the allegations against MJ.
Phew! I'm glad you said this Jirin. I was trying to word a post along the same lines.

This was certainly the case with 'The Baby Groupies' who was led by Sable Starr. They were a group of groupies who engaged in consensual sex with people like Iggy Pop, David Bowie et al.

When it comes to Statatory rape, if a 17 year-old girl had sex in California it would be illegal (age of consent is 18) but in NZ it would be legal (age of consent is 16).

Elvis and Bill Wynan both slept with 14 year-olds and in both situations they married them. (Which again is a tricky issue that I don't personally agree with morally).

Again, like Jirin, I am not saying statutory rape is morally acceptable but I also agree these are different allegations to MJ.

User avatar
Live in Phoenix
Die Mensch Maschine
Posts: 1078
Joined: Wed Jan 02, 2013 12:50 am

Re: Discussion thread for 1982 Michael Jackson, Leaving Neverland

Post by Live in Phoenix » Fri Apr 05, 2019 3:45 pm

Not quite in the same category, for sure, because little kids don't really know anything yet, and are easier to take advantage of or overpower.

Cold Butterfly
Let's Get It On
Posts: 174
Joined: Sun Dec 09, 2018 2:28 am
Location: Ashburn, Virginia

Re: Discussion thread for 1982 Michael Jackson, Leaving Neverland

Post by Cold Butterfly » Fri Apr 05, 2019 4:57 pm

Not saying it's in the same category because yes, it's a very complicated issue...Was just offering examples, although now I realize that their backgrounds are more complex than I thought.

Jirin
Die Mensch Maschine
Posts: 2460
Joined: Fri Feb 10, 2012 4:12 am

Re: Discussion thread for 1982 Michael Jackson, Leaving Neverland

Post by Jirin » Fri Apr 05, 2019 6:22 pm

It’s certainly immoral but it’s a very different category of immoral.

Cold Butterfly
Let's Get It On
Posts: 174
Joined: Sun Dec 09, 2018 2:28 am
Location: Ashburn, Virginia

Re: Discussion thread for 1982 Michael Jackson, Leaving Neverland

Post by Cold Butterfly » Fri Apr 05, 2019 7:54 pm

Jirin wrote:It’s certainly immoral but it’s a very different category of immoral.
Absolutely correct.

User avatar
Bruno
Die Mensch Maschine
Posts: 1300
Joined: Sun Feb 19, 2012 1:33 pm
Location: São Paulo, Brasil
Contact:

Re: Discussion thread for 1982 Michael Jackson, Leaving Neverland

Post by Bruno » Sat Apr 06, 2019 2:57 am


User avatar
Moonbeam
Die Mensch Maschine
Posts: 1785
Joined: Mon Feb 06, 2012 11:40 am
Location: Sydney, Australia

Re: Discussion thread for 1982 Michael Jackson, Leaving Neverland

Post by Moonbeam » Sat Apr 06, 2019 7:09 am

I've always considered myself an MJ fan. Not a big fan, but a fan nonetheless - I've got all of his albums from Off the Wall to Invincible, some multiple times due to different formats/remastered copies. He's never been a mega-favorite of mine, but someone whose music I have always enjoyed on the whole.

When the original allegations came out in 1993, I didn't believe them. Same with 2005. I figured that MJ was an easy target. But I couldn't say for certain that he was innocent. Having watched Leaving Neverland, I'm still unsure, but I am a bit more doubtful of his innocence than I was before. Yes, there are inconsistencies in the stories in places, although some of that could be attributed to the memories being 25-30 years old at this stage. Some of the footage of Michael himself leaving voice messages and video messages just struck me the wrong way.

In any case, I haven't listened to MJ since I watched it to really gauge how I feel about his music. He's not an artist I listen to a lot anyway. I'm a geek who keeps track of these things, so I can say that I listened to 31 MJ songs in 2017 and 29 in 2018, and just 4 so far this year. But if the music starts to feel to me like "bait" for his victims, it will leave me uncomfortable.

Post Reply