AMF's Top 250 Women in Music
- Honorio
- Higher Ground
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Re: AMF's Top 250 Women in Music
BleuPanda, thank you very much for all the hard work you put on these three polls. The presentation on all three of them was superb, with excellent choices for quotes on the songs poll and pictures on the artist poll. These polls in my opinion are the best thing that happened to Acclaimed Music Forum in the last few years. And I mean it. I'm not exaggerating.
Some quick comments about the final artists list. I like the list a lot, it's quite balanced in different axis like mainstream vs. indie, anglocentric vs. worldcentric (at least in part) or classic vs. recent artists. About this last dichotomy (that created some controversy during the posting of the results) I've divided the Top 100 artists between the ones who released her more acclaimed album (or song if it was the case) before 1985 and after 1985, two periods of more or less 30 years. And while on the Top 25 artists the main percentage (68%, 17/25) was for older/classic artists (as expected) on the whole Top 100 the percentage was slightly higher (54%) for newer artists. I got no time to go through the whole Top 250 but I got the sensation that almost 2/3 of the acts released their more acclaimed works on the last 30 years.
And finally, even if my own Top 5 was (slightly) different, I like a lot the final Top 5. Especially the Top 3 with 3 singer-songwriters (in a broad sense) with idiosyncratic and unconventional approaches to music that in spite of this proved to be quite popular. And with unique, peculiar (and great in my opinion) singing styles. To counterbalance this the ladies in positions 4 and 5 shined in pre-existing and well defined music styles (gospel-soul and dance-pop respectively) but showed so strong vocal prowess and scenic presence (also respectively) that ended being probably the most influential artists on the list.
Thanks again, BleuPanda!!
Some quick comments about the final artists list. I like the list a lot, it's quite balanced in different axis like mainstream vs. indie, anglocentric vs. worldcentric (at least in part) or classic vs. recent artists. About this last dichotomy (that created some controversy during the posting of the results) I've divided the Top 100 artists between the ones who released her more acclaimed album (or song if it was the case) before 1985 and after 1985, two periods of more or less 30 years. And while on the Top 25 artists the main percentage (68%, 17/25) was for older/classic artists (as expected) on the whole Top 100 the percentage was slightly higher (54%) for newer artists. I got no time to go through the whole Top 250 but I got the sensation that almost 2/3 of the acts released their more acclaimed works on the last 30 years.
And finally, even if my own Top 5 was (slightly) different, I like a lot the final Top 5. Especially the Top 3 with 3 singer-songwriters (in a broad sense) with idiosyncratic and unconventional approaches to music that in spite of this proved to be quite popular. And with unique, peculiar (and great in my opinion) singing styles. To counterbalance this the ladies in positions 4 and 5 shined in pre-existing and well defined music styles (gospel-soul and dance-pop respectively) but showed so strong vocal prowess and scenic presence (also respectively) that ended being probably the most influential artists on the list.
Thanks again, BleuPanda!!
Re: AMF's Top 250 Women in Music
I explained throughout that actually handling that wasn't working out, and I explicitly listed it as Diana Ross and The Supremes, not just The Supremes...Dexter wrote:Wondered about the special treatment for Fleetwood Mac too. The rule on this matter should have been made clear before the poll. For instance, I wouldn't have placed Diana Ross so high on my list if she is ranked solely on her contributions with the Supremes. In any case, superb presentation, very impressed with the pictures.BleuPanda wrote:panam wrote:Congratulations! Only a question: Why the female members of Fleetwood Mac have separated positions on the list?
It was an option to list people separately; I ultimately decided to combine other bands, but both from Fleetwood Mac consistently got separate votes, even within lists, so I decided to keep them separate.
Re: AMF's Top 250 Women in Music
I don't think era bias is the only thing that determines the number of newer artists toward the top. I think in the 60s and 70s, there was more overlap between the 'best artists' and the 'most popular artists' than there are today. I think if you checked number of votes in individual ballots, the difference would be smaller. Only, everyone more agrees what artists are great the farther you go back in time.
- Rob
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Re: AMF's Top 250 Women in Music
I want to chime in to thank BluePanda for all the work on this poll trilogy! It was a massive undertaking, but very worthwhile. And yes, I know I'm saying this after being skeptical beforehand.
I was also thinking about my own response to this last poll about the artists. As my reaction on the placement on Céline Dion showed I can get far more worked up about these results than I can with songs or albums. When a song or album I don't like places on a list I mostly shrug and move on, whereas some artist rank I can get really annoyed. I started to wonder why? What is the difference? I think I can put my finger on it now. The key was Madonna, who I can't stand, but whose presence in the top 10 doesn't quite get to me as much as Céline Dion (and a couple of others which I chose not to name now. Of course a part of it is that Madonna is a usual suspect, but there is something else. I may not like Madonna, but I can't deny that she has carved her own path on her own terms.
The artists I really had trouble with are the ones that seem more like products; who don't write their own music and safely follow trends. These are the artists that seem to be mostly famous, instead of really creative. And an artist poll really feels to me like it should be about things like personality and artistry, as much as about output. Most women on this list have something that makes the unique, but a couple got their fame for the opposite reason. And that is something I find hard to take sometimes; especially if a real creative barnstormer ends up below someone who feels like a ready-made product. When rating songs or albums it doesn't matter that much who is the creative force in comparison to the quality of the overall work. When rating artists we only have the creative force to work with. I guess this doesn't work so for everyone. Just having a list of great songs and albums is enough for a placement and something could be said for that. For me, an artist represents just a little more: a reason to turn towards him or her specifically.
I was also thinking about my own response to this last poll about the artists. As my reaction on the placement on Céline Dion showed I can get far more worked up about these results than I can with songs or albums. When a song or album I don't like places on a list I mostly shrug and move on, whereas some artist rank I can get really annoyed. I started to wonder why? What is the difference? I think I can put my finger on it now. The key was Madonna, who I can't stand, but whose presence in the top 10 doesn't quite get to me as much as Céline Dion (and a couple of others which I chose not to name now. Of course a part of it is that Madonna is a usual suspect, but there is something else. I may not like Madonna, but I can't deny that she has carved her own path on her own terms.
The artists I really had trouble with are the ones that seem more like products; who don't write their own music and safely follow trends. These are the artists that seem to be mostly famous, instead of really creative. And an artist poll really feels to me like it should be about things like personality and artistry, as much as about output. Most women on this list have something that makes the unique, but a couple got their fame for the opposite reason. And that is something I find hard to take sometimes; especially if a real creative barnstormer ends up below someone who feels like a ready-made product. When rating songs or albums it doesn't matter that much who is the creative force in comparison to the quality of the overall work. When rating artists we only have the creative force to work with. I guess this doesn't work so for everyone. Just having a list of great songs and albums is enough for a placement and something could be said for that. For me, an artist represents just a little more: a reason to turn towards him or her specifically.
Re: AMF's Top 250 Women in Music
As others have said, thank you very much, BleuPanda. You clearly put a lot of time and effort into this, and the rollouts were fantastic with many great choices of quotes and pictures... Not to mention how great of an idea these polls were in the first place, coming to fruition with all of your participation.
I see where you're coming from here, but it can be tough. Sometimes it's obvious and well known, but other times I have no idea how much creative input each person has, so I judge the artists much more on the final products. And personally I think doing something different is often overrated. If there were a band that sounded exactly like The Beatles and mimicked all of their styles to perfection with new songs, that band wouldn't be overly creative, but it would likely be my 2nd-favorite band. Whereas lots of critically acclaimed songs/albums/artists score major points for originality, but they suffer if you simply judge them based on quality. I refuse to rate an artist highly simply based on creativity if I don't enjoy the music. That said, I probably should have demoted a few pop stars for this poll who did not write their own songs.Rob wrote:And an artist poll really feels to me like it should be about things like personality and artistry, as much as about output. Most women on this list have something that makes the unique, but a couple got their fame for the opposite reason. And that is something I find hard to take sometimes; especially if a real creative barnstormer ends up below someone who feels like a ready-made product. When rating songs or albums it doesn't matter that much who is the creative force in comparison to the quality of the overall work. When rating artists we only have the creative force to work with. I guess this doesn't work so for everyone. Just having a list of great songs and albums is enough for a placement and something could be said for that. For me, an artist represents just a little more: a reason to turn towards him or her specifically.
- Rob
- Die Mensch Maschine
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Re: AMF's Top 250 Women in Music
Obviously I don't do that either. I already mentioned Madonna, who is very influential and did her own thing, but I don't personally care about her music and didn't vote for her. Originality is also not just about changing music history. It is just that element that makes an artist stand out, the way an artist puts you in her or his head in a way that nobody else quite does. That is a powerful thing to make happen.andyd1010 wrote:I refuse to rate an artist highly simply based on creativity if I don't enjoy the music.
Re: AMF's Top 250 Women in Music
That's fair.Rob wrote:Obviously I don't do that either. I already mentioned Madonna, who is very influential and did her own thing, but I don't personally care about her music and didn't vote for her. Originality is also not just about changing music history. It is just that element that makes an artist stand out, the way an artist puts you in her or his head in a way that nobody else quite does. That is a powerful thing to make happen.andyd1010 wrote:I refuse to rate an artist highly simply based on creativity if I don't enjoy the music.
I'm curious what some of your thoughts are on Kate Bush. I don't know much about her. Outside of this website, I've barely ever heard her mentioned. I like Wuthering Heights, Running Up That Hill, and Hounds of Love, but you guys and the critics love them more. I couldn't get into the other 20 or so songs I listened to by her. She has an unusual voice and style (which I'm sure a lot of you like).
Do other Americans think she's made a significant cultural impact here, and I just missed it?
From searching the internet for a bit, apparently she was huge in England, and I guess that permeated throughout a lot of Europe. She barely ever toured, and never in America, so I'm sure that hurt her chances of gaining traction here. I remember Henrik being shocked at her poor performance in the Hall of Fame voting, which seems to reinforce my perception of her standing in the States.
Re: AMF's Top 250 Women in Music
andyd1010 wrote:That's fair.Rob wrote:Obviously I don't do that either. I already mentioned Madonna, who is very influential and did her own thing, but I don't personally care about her music and didn't vote for her. Originality is also not just about changing music history. It is just that element that makes an artist stand out, the way an artist puts you in her or his head in a way that nobody else quite does. That is a powerful thing to make happen.andyd1010 wrote:I refuse to rate an artist highly simply based on creativity if I don't enjoy the music.
I'm curious what some of your thoughts are on Kate Bush. I don't know much about her. Outside of this website, I've barely ever heard her mentioned. I like Wuthering Heights, Running Up That Hill, and Hounds of Love, but you guys and the critics love them more. I couldn't get into the other 20 or so songs I listened to by her. She has an unusual voice and style (which I'm sure a lot of you like).
Do other Americans think she's made a significant cultural impact here, and I just missed it?
From searching the internet for a bit, apparently she was huge in England, and I guess that permeated throughout a lot of Europe. She barely ever toured, and never in America, so I'm sure that hurt her chances of gaining traction here. I remember Henrik being shocked at her poor performance in the Hall of Fame voting, which seems to reinforce my perception of her standing in the States.
I wish I could answer that. It's been a funny side effect of me really getting into music through this site. I used to talk about bands like Television and Primal Scream as if people would know them, and it used to be shocking that pretty much no one I met did. Though I guess that worked out, because now I've introduced a ton of people to those acts.
- prosecutorgodot
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Re: AMF's Top 250 Women in Music
Kate Bush basically invented the modern solo female pop act. Madonna was definitely taking notes. (but of course Kate was influenced by Bowie.)
Re: AMF's Top 250 Women in Music
What really surprised me was learning that Wuthering Heights was actually a number one hit in the UK, lasting a few weeks at the top. Up until learning that, I had always assumed she was one of those art-rock types that the average person would never come across, but, no. She was actually a star.
- Rob
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Re: AMF's Top 250 Women in Music
Well, she is my #7 so obviously I'm a fan. She is a good example of a totally unique artist. I can't speak about America, but I think she is big in much of Europe. Wuthering Heights was something of a sensation when it came out, if my father is to be believed (and he is not a music nerd who reads critics). It was most definitely a hit and most people in my country know about her. When she announced a couple of years ago that she would do a few concerts in London that was big news and many Dutch people tried to get tickets. Her songs also do well on mainstream radio polls, including the yearly top 2000 on Radio 2, which is something of an event around here (https://www.nporadio2.nl/top2000).andyd1010 wrote: I'm curious what some of your thoughts are on Kate Bush. I don't know much about her. Outside of this website, I've barely ever heard her mentioned. I like Wuthering Heights, Running Up That Hill, and Hounds of Love, but you guys and the critics love them more. I couldn't get into the other 20 or so songs I listened to by her. She has an unusual voice and style (which I'm sure a lot of you like).
Do other Americans think she's made a significant cultural impact here, and I just missed it?
So yes, Kate Bush is a big deal in these parts and my reaction on the exclusion of her on the Hall of Fame (as well as her bad performance on the corresponding poll) was a huge surprise to me. It was only then that I learned she wasn't big in the USA. Her influence is mostly notable on many alternative artists and art pop, most obviously on Tori Amos and Joanna Newsom, but you can also trace it to St. Vincent and Lorde. Björk even.
Re: AMF's Top 250 Women in Music
Thanks and Congratulations BleuPanda! Amazing job with all three polls.
- StevieFan13
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Re: AMF's Top 250 Women in Music
Yeah, Kate Bush isn't nearly as well-known over here. She's kind of a big figure for music nerds like me and alt-rock fans, but she isn't someone any random person on the street would know if you mentioned her. Her not getting into the Hall of Fame was a shame (she totally deserved it) but didn't surprise me at all. I don't think she had too many hits here, although Running Up That Hill was #30 on the Hot 100 and This Woman's Work topped the alternative charts.Rob wrote:Well, she is my #7 so obviously I'm a fan. She is a good example of a totally unique artist. I can't speak about America, but I think she is big in much of Europe. Wuthering Heights was something of a sensation when it came out, if my father is to be believed (and he is not a music nerd who reads critics). It was most definitely a hit and most people in my country know about her. When she announced a couple of years ago that she would do a few concerts in London that was big news and many Dutch people tried to get tickets. Her songs also do well on mainstream radio polls, including the yearly top 2000 on Radio 2, which is something of an event around here (https://www.nporadio2.nl/top2000).andyd1010 wrote: I'm curious what some of your thoughts are on Kate Bush. I don't know much about her. Outside of this website, I've barely ever heard her mentioned. I like Wuthering Heights, Running Up That Hill, and Hounds of Love, but you guys and the critics love them more. I couldn't get into the other 20 or so songs I listened to by her. She has an unusual voice and style (which I'm sure a lot of you like).
Do other Americans think she's made a significant cultural impact here, and I just missed it?
So yes, Kate Bush is a big deal in these parts and my reaction on the exclusion of her on the Hall of Fame (as well as her bad performance on the corresponding poll) was a huge surprise to me. It was only then that I learned she wasn't big in the USA. Her influence is mostly notable on many alternative artists and art pop, most obviously on Tori Amos and Joanna Newsom, but you can also trace it to St. Vincent and Lorde. Björk even.
Music is a world within itself, with a language we all understand - Sir Duke (1976)
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Re: AMF's Top 250 Women in Music
I didn't participate, dangit- maybe next year. Would Madonna have been bumped up with my No. 1 ranking?
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Re: AMF's Top 250 Women in Music
Could have been. Sadly the highest ranking American born artist, the queen of soul herself is said to be gravely ill. Let’s hope for a miracle and say a little prayer for her.
- StevieFan13
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Re: AMF's Top 250 Women in Music
Oh shitluvulongTIM wrote:Could have been. Sadly the highest ranking American born artist, the queen of soul herself is said to be gravely ill. Let’s hope for a miracle and say a little prayer for her.
Music is a world within itself, with a language we all understand - Sir Duke (1976)
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Re: AMF's Top 250 Women in Music
The next 10 years are going to be really brutal for '60s musicians. A lot of them are in their mid or late '70s. It's more than I really want to think about. Some '50s rockers have had exceptionally long lives, though.