Planning for the all-time songs poll!

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Sweepstakes Ron
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Planning for the all-time songs poll!

Postby Sweepstakes Ron » Thu Mar 08, 2018 3:24 pm

The results of the Songs by Women poll are still rolling out, but BleuPanda just posted an all-time songs list in its own thread, and if the one who's running the Women in Music poll is ready for the all-time poll, I'd say that's a sure sign we all need to start preparing for it. But don't start sharing your lists just yet, because there's still things to discuss!

First and foremost, is when we should open the poll. One thing that is certain is that I want the poll to run for a total of 4 months. I think that we could potentially start as soon as the Songs by Women poll results are finished, which would put the due date in mid-July. I want to get the bulk of the work done before the fall semester starts, so I could probably do it as late as mid-April to mid-August.
Personally, I was considering for a while if we should let the Women poll sit for a little while before going straight into all-time, but now I don't think that's much of a problem. Most of the songs yet to be unveiled are ones that pretty much everyone knows at this point, with the more obscure one's rife for discovery. Not to mention, most people don't post their all-time lists until the last month of the poll, so they'd all have plenty of time to make their discoveries from the Women poll.
Before we discuss anything else, I just want to hear other opinions about whether or not it would be better to start sooner rather than later.
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Re: Planning for the all-time songs poll!

Postby Krurze » Thu Mar 08, 2018 7:44 pm

The first AM poll I ever participated in, and my favourite by far! :music-rockon:

I'd be d'accord with about any deadline since I'm on prolonged vacation in summer and probably will be posting my list by May either case.

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Re: Planning for the all-time songs poll!

Postby StevieFan13 » Thu Mar 08, 2018 11:06 pm

The sooner the better.
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Re: Planning for the all-time songs poll!

Postby Dexter » Fri Mar 09, 2018 12:29 am

Can't wait for the all-time songs poll to start but I'm also interested in an all-time guilty pleasure songs. For me, it will be interesting to know what are the AMFers' guilty pleasure songs, sort of like a counter program to the main poll, and I will be willing to conduct it. Do you think it's a good idea to also run it in conjunction with the all-time songs poll?

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Re: Planning for the all-time songs poll!

Postby StevieFan13 » Fri Mar 09, 2018 12:43 am

Dexter wrote:Can't wait for the all-time songs poll to start but I'm also interested in an all-time guilty pleasure songs. For me, it will be interesting to know what are the AMFers' guilty pleasure songs, sort of like a counter program to the main poll, and I will be willing to conduct it. Do you think it's a good idea to also run it in conjunction with the all-time songs poll?

That would be so fun. Two fun lists for the price of one!
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Re: Planning for the all-time songs poll!

Postby Live in Phoenix » Fri Mar 09, 2018 12:57 am

Dexter wrote:Can't wait for the all-time songs poll to start but I'm also interested in an all-time guilty pleasure songs. For me, it will be interesting to know what are the AMFers' guilty pleasure songs, sort of like a counter program to the main poll, and I will be willing to conduct it. Do you think it's a good idea to also run it in conjunction with the all-time songs poll?


Not sure what the parameters would be for that, but I'm sure I like some shitty songs. Can't be on the AM songs main page?

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Re: Planning for the all-time songs poll!

Postby bonnielaurel » Fri Mar 09, 2018 12:57 am

June 30th would be a good deadline.

About "guilty pleasures" I have no idea how to define that. I just vote for whatever I like without feeling guilty.

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Re: Planning for the all-time songs poll!

Postby Live in Phoenix » Fri Mar 09, 2018 2:22 am

Milli Vanilli has a song on the main page, now. MC Hammer always had one. Vanilla Ice's #1 hit still unaccounted for. I'd presumably be voting for all of them.

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Re: Planning for the all-time songs poll!

Postby Sweepstakes Ron » Fri Mar 09, 2018 2:27 am

I'd be on board with the guilty pleasure poll, however difficult it may be to define. If you're going to continue with it, I'd suggest moving it into another thread so we can keep this about the all-time poll.
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Re: Planning for the all-time songs poll!

Postby Dexter » Fri Mar 09, 2018 2:34 am

Sorry about that Sweepstakes Ron. There appears to be some interest in the concept so I'll create another thread to discuss how we define the term "guilty pleasure" in the context of the planned AMF poll.

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Re: Planning for the all-time songs poll!

Postby Live in Phoenix » Fri Mar 09, 2018 2:42 am

Sorry about that. As far as the all-time poll, I'm fine with either sooner or later. (Either way, I'd presumably have several months from the starting gun. God knows it's time-consuming, as no one is safe from revision, plus I'm trying to organize the songs by year.)

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Re: Planning for the all-time songs poll!

Postby Sweepstakes Ron » Fri Mar 09, 2018 3:05 am

No worries about the off-topicness. Anything that sprouts new ideas is fine by me!

So, since there seems to be plenty of support for the starting date, I think it's time to move on to the bigger topic at hand. I think we're plenty capable of producing a top 2000 results, and we can do this by expanding the maximum to 1000 songs per list. There has been an increasing number of users expanding their lists further and further beyond 500 (and of course, a few who go WAY beyond), and I'd like to see all that effort be put to good use. If we can run a poll with lists of 500 albums, 1000 songs should definitely be doable. The main concern I've seen with such a notion is the amount of work the pollrunner would have to do, but... after the albums poll last year, I feel like collaboration should start to become standard with these types of things. So if any of you are willing to give up the suspense of watching the results roll out, I'd greatly appreciate your help with the poll. Like I said before, though, most of the lists will probably arrive close to the due date, so it's not an urgent request.

The more debatable topic may be what to set the minimum as. My original plan was to just keep it at 100, but I remembered a post by Bruno in the all-time albums thread, proposing that the next song poll should have 1000 maximum and 250 minimum, and he seemed to have support from other forumers. I asked Bruno about this, and he said that increasing the minimum would open up more space for "surprises" in the results. The likely counterargument, however, is that 250 may still be a lot for some people. Certainly not for the vast majority of our regulars, but some newcomers could potentially be daunted by such a number. I'm still planning to go with 250 for now, but if there are any counterarguments, I'd love to hear you speak out.
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Re: Planning for the all-time songs poll!

Postby Dexter » Fri Mar 09, 2018 3:36 am

I support 250 or 200 at the minimum and 1,000 maximum. With this poll I don't believe we'll have to worry about lack of submissions.

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Re: Planning for the all-time songs poll!

Postby BleuPanda » Fri Mar 09, 2018 4:44 am

I'm not sure you need 1000 for individual lists to achieve 2000 overall. The individual lists are kind of exponential to the final result. I think 500 would still work; what really matters is making sure being ranked #500 is worth a reasonable amount of points. In the song by women poll, #1 is worth about 5 times as much as #250, and I think having a similar ratio between 1 and 500 would work out well (I'd also suggest having the simple rule that a song needs multiple votes to be listed in the final results). Basically, the point is, putting too much of a point difference between the top and bottom of each list limits how much information you can draw from it, so make sure #1 isn't too powerful.

Also be wary that longer lists mean a longer time it will take to compile everything (and the more chances for errors). You especially don't want to be adding #501 to #1000 if being ranked #1000 has no meaningful impact on the final results.

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Re: Planning for the all-time songs poll!

Postby Sweepstakes Ron » Fri Mar 09, 2018 5:15 am

Well, Bleu, now that you mention it... For quite a while, I had been focusing on this messy looking formula proposed by Sonofsamiam back in 2012, before he abandoned it two weeks later.

((500*(1+100)/([placement]+100))+(501-[placement]))/2

The point spread would be:

1: 500.0
2: 497.0
3: 494.1
4: 491.3
5: 488.5
10: 475.0
20: 450.9
50: 393.8
100: 326.8
200: 234.7
300: 163.6
400: 101.0
500: 42.6

I applied this formula to the results of the 2015 poll, and found that it actually could produce a top 2000 (there were just under 2100 songs with >500 points). A song at #180 would have about half the points of a song at #1. Interestingly, it actually stoops a bit lower than the formula used in 2015 at the tail end (the point of intersection is about 492.2).

I figured that with this formula, the forum would consider the top 1000 less "interesting" (for example, "Gardening at Night" slips from 551 to 989, and "Requiem" falls from 969 to 1317) but if the whole top 2000 is shown, the more esoteric songs would still get to be put on display, while the final results are, in my opinion, more accurate to the forum's overall taste.

Admittedly, I may have totally been jumping the gun with trying to run my first all-time poll with lists twice as large as before. Besides, I feel like, say, someone's #180 song would probably have more significance than their #180 album anyways.

What do people think of the above formula?
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Re: Planning for the all-time songs poll!

Postby Sweepstakes Ron » Fri Mar 09, 2018 5:20 am

And just for the record, for the formula I planned to use for the max 1000 version of the poll (the same as the one actually used in the 2012 poll), a #1000 song would receive more points than a #500 album did in last year's poll.
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Re: Planning for the all-time songs poll!

Postby Jackson » Fri Mar 09, 2018 8:23 am

I would love for the top 1000 songs to count, but only if the person running the poll is OK with the extra work. At this point songs 501-1000 on my list are songs I really love and support doing well in the poll, so it would be great if they could count :)

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Re: Planning for the all-time songs poll!

Postby andyd1010 » Fri Mar 09, 2018 10:24 am

Jackson wrote:I would love for the top 1000 songs to count, but only if the person running the poll is OK with the extra work. At this point songs 501-1000 on my list are songs I really love and support doing well in the poll, so it would be great if they could count :)

I agree! Really looking forward to this either way.

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Re: Planning for the all-time songs poll!

Postby Sweepstakes Ron » Fri Mar 09, 2018 3:16 pm

Well, I'm certainly faced with a tough decision here. I'll admit, I've sort of cheated by starting to add BleuPanda's list to the spreadsheet (I assume it's not going to change this year). That way, I can get a head start in knowing what's ahead. I could start out by entering top 1000s, then if it proves to be too much, I could officially announce a change to 500 max, and cut out the 501-1000 ranges I'd already entered? I figure that the people who want to make a list of 1000 would do so anyway, even with the lower minimum. Plus, I can't really predict how many people will make lists of more than 500, and how much more (some might just make lists of 550, for example). I'll sit on this for a few days.
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Re: Planning for the all-time songs poll!

Postby panam » Sat Mar 10, 2018 12:39 am

Dexter wrote:I support 250 or 200 at the minimum and 1,000 maximum. With this poll I don't believe we'll have to worry about lack of submissions.


Me too

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Re: Planning for the all-time songs poll!

Postby Sweepstakes Ron » Sat Mar 10, 2018 4:33 am

So, question for all of you: how long do you plan on making your individual lists? I myself don't plan on going farther than 500, but that would still be the most I've ever done.
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Re: Planning for the all-time songs poll!

Postby andyd1010 » Sat Mar 10, 2018 5:51 am

Sweepstakes Ron wrote:So, question for all of you: how long do you plan on making your individual lists? I myself don't plan on going farther than 500, but that would still be the most I've ever done.

I’m going to do at least 1000.

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Re: Planning for the all-time songs poll!

Postby Rob » Sat Mar 10, 2018 12:09 pm

Sweepstakes Ron wrote:So, question for all of you: how long do you plan on making your individual lists? I myself don't plan on going farther than 500, but that would still be the most I've ever done.


I have to see about it. I think I could manage a top 1000 I fully stand behind, but at the same time it might prove too time consuming and I might not be able to do it. If it hardly makes any difference on the final list I'm not sure I will even try, unless I feel like it.

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Re: Planning for the all-time songs poll!

Postby jamieW » Sat Mar 10, 2018 1:56 pm

Sweepstakes Ron wrote:So, question for all of you: how long do you plan on making your individual lists? I myself don't plan on going farther than 500, but that would still be the most I've ever done.


I definitely plan on submitting a top 1000 this time. I just sorted my spreadsheet and noticed there are 7,871 songs I give an 8 or higher (which represents songs I really love). I'd actually never checked that before - no wonder I have so much trouble narrowing down my lists!

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Re: Planning for the all-time songs poll!

Postby panam » Sat Mar 10, 2018 2:00 pm

Sweepstakes Ron wrote:So, question for all of you: how long do you plan on making your individual lists? I myself don't plan on going farther than 500, but that would still be the most I've ever done.


Top 1000, for sure.

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Re: Planning for the all-time songs poll!

Postby Krurze » Sat Mar 10, 2018 2:04 pm

If 1000 songs per user are counted for the poll I'd definitely do a top 1000, too

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Re: Planning for the all-time songs poll!

Postby Sweepstakes Ron » Sat Mar 10, 2018 3:09 pm

This is the formula I plan to use if we do lists of 1000. I think this would be enough to get 2000+ songs with enough points. It's using the 500-point scale so it can be compared to previous formulas used.

500*(1+75)/([placement]+75)

1: 500.0
2: 493.5
3: 487.2
4: 481.0
5: 475.0
10: 447.1
50: 304.0
100: 217.1
200: 138.2
300: 101.3
400: 80.0
500: 66.1
600: 56.3
700: 49.0
800: 43.4
900: 39.0
1000: 35.3
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Re: Planning for the all-time songs poll!

Postby Live in Phoenix » Sat Mar 10, 2018 3:51 pm

At times I have actively worked on a top 1000 list. More recently, I've felt like I would be happy just assembling a top 500 list again.

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Re: Planning for the all-time songs poll!

Postby BleuPanda » Sat Mar 10, 2018 4:23 pm

That feels really steep to me. Like, it would take 8 people ranking a song around #500 to outdo a single person ranking a song #1. What's the point of going all the way to 1000 if even #500 won't leave much of an impact?


I think a flaw we have in our usual polls is that we overvalue people's #1's. Like, looking at those numbers, I promise you, I don't feel there's a 143 point difference between my #10 and #50, and while I love "All My Friends," I certainly don't feel it's over twice as valuable to me as my #100 (Julee Cruise's "Falling"). And I especially don't think that statement is true of my #10, "Heartbeats," yet that's what your current formula would cause.

For the women in music poll, I balanced my numbers so that two top 100 votes would be stronger than a single #1 vote, but here they'd still need yet another top 500 vote; and I only went to #250! While it's nice to leave room for people's personal favorites to sneak in, should it really be at the expense of songs a lot more of us agree deserve a place (even if it's not anyone's specific personal favorite)?




Essentially, a trade-off of using longer lists is that you're going to have to give higher songs closer values; but how many of us really want our #10 to receive a #600-sized difference from #1?

Here's what the numbers would look like with a less steep curve; I balanced it around the idea of #1 being 5 times as strong as #500, which also leads to a single #1 being slightly weaker than two top 100 votes and a single #1 vote being about the equivalent of nine #1000s. So, it'd still take a lot of low votes to outdo a #1, but it's a reduction from 15 to 9.

=500*(1+125)/(placement+125):
1: 500
2: 496.1
3: 492.2
4: 488.4
5: 484.6
10: 466.7
50: 360
100: 280
200: 193.8
300: 148.2
400: 120
500: 100.8
600: 86.9
700: 76.4
800: 68.1
900: 61.5
1000: 56

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Re: Planning for the all-time songs poll!

Postby Live in Phoenix » Sat Mar 10, 2018 9:22 pm

If you guys offer to take 1,000 submissions, I'll probably attempt to submit that many.

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Re: Planning for the all-time songs poll!

Postby StevieFan13 » Sat Mar 10, 2018 9:38 pm

All-time lists have always been hard for me bc I worry I’ll forget things, but 1,000 would give me enough room to include pretty much everything I wanted.
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Re: Planning for the all-time songs poll!

Postby Sweepstakes Ron » Sat Mar 10, 2018 10:37 pm

Thanks for giving a detailed explanation, BleuPanda. I definitely agree with you that the formula ought to be less steep, for pretty much the same reasons. However, I had noticed that many forumers seemed to prefer the steeper curves, probably because the results are more "interesting" that way. Ultimately, though, I don't think that's really the point of these forum polls; rather, they should serve to capture an image of the overall forum's taste at the time.

I think I'm going to go ahead with the 1000 maximum, because there seems to be a significant number of users who feel that such a length is the best way to express their tastes. I think having more data will be totally worth the extra work – especially if that data consists of thousands of wonderful songs to listen to!

I think I'll stick with BleuPanda's suggested formula for now, but I could easily change it at any point up until the last second. Regardless, I'm going to release the spreadsheet once the results are all rolled out, so not only can people scan the individual lists for hidden gems, they can take the data and arrange it however they want. That way, people can see how the list with a steeper point curve, a smaller maximum, and so on.
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Re: Planning for the all-time songs poll!

Postby Fred » Sun Mar 11, 2018 4:29 pm

Last year 50 new songs found its way onto my previous thousand list but strangely enough there ony seem to be about 450 real good songs on/in it. But maybe it takes a thousand list for me to have found out. Heaven is a place on earth. I don't know why I say it but song no. 10 should have around 300 points and no. 900-1000 around 1-3 points. Is there such a magical graph? AND is there a saying about the boys (where are the girls) that they promise thousand fold? I concur to a thousand list because somewhere in the process (big) listmaking becomes art. Life is equal parts fun and art, I imagine from a thought afterlife perspective. Now...rock and roll!.

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Re: Planning for the all-time songs poll!

Postby Fred » Sun Mar 11, 2018 4:33 pm

Imagine the best list you can assemble that on the same note uses songs from as few artists as possible.

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Re: Planning for the all-time songs poll!

Postby Sweepstakes Ron » Sun Mar 11, 2018 4:42 pm

Of course, the 1000 maximum is not an obligation, or even a recommendation. You only need to put in as many songs as you think is feasible or necessary. For me, 500 is the perfect number right now, but I hope that will increase as the years go on. If you can only come up with 250 songs that you consider your favorites, then there's no pressure to list more than that.
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Re: Planning for the all-time songs poll!

Postby Wezzo » Mon Mar 12, 2018 8:53 am

Checking in as a long-time lurker to say I'd be interested in partaking, and I have a top 1000 list I've been working on for a few months (coincidentally) that I'll finish off in time to submit. Excited for this.

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Re: Planning for the all-time songs poll!

Postby TheLastEnemy » Mon Mar 12, 2018 12:20 pm

I would be very happy to help out with the poll - I don't mind missing the suspense, as for me, watching the results take place would be just as much fun!

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Re: Planning for the all-time songs poll!

Postby Sweepstakes Ron » Tue Mar 13, 2018 1:52 am

TheLastEnemy wrote:I would be very happy to help out with the poll - I don't mind missing the suspense, as for me, watching the results take place would be just as much fun!


Thank you so much! Once everything is set up, I'll PM you a link to the Google Sheet.
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Re: Planning for the all-time songs poll!

Postby Bruno » Tue Mar 13, 2018 3:24 pm

I'm excited for this. I will do a top 1000 list.

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Re: Planning for the all-time songs poll!

Postby Red Ant » Tue Mar 13, 2018 4:36 pm

A list of 1000 songs sounds fine for me too. It might be worth providing some guidance on the best format for the lists to be submitted - and maybe to encourage people to cross-reference to Henrik's master lists (where applicable) to help those consolidating all of the entries.

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Re: Planning for the all-time songs poll!

Postby Sweepstakes Ron » Tue Mar 13, 2018 5:37 pm

Well, looks like it's about time to start... thanks for the support and suggestions, everyone!
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Re: Planning for the all-time songs poll!

Postby rumpdoll » Wed Mar 14, 2018 8:14 am

One question regarding classical music, is it ok to post one movement of a symphony or only the complete one?

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Re: Planning for the all-time songs poll!

Postby Sweepstakes Ron » Wed Mar 14, 2018 1:36 pm

rumpdoll wrote:One question regarding classical music, is it ok to post one movement of a symphony or only the complete one?

Symphonies can and should be voted for by movement.
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