Music of Hip Hop: Song Finals

[ordinaryperson]

Vote for your favorite out of each of the match ups. Voting for this week will end on the 8st of July at 7:00pm EST.



Brackets:
Albums
Songs

WINNER OF THE ALBUMS


Songs
M.I.A. - Paper Planes vs. Notorious B.I.G. - Juicy

[bootsy]

Notorious B.I.G. - Juicy

If Paper Planes wins, it's not a hip-hop song. I just can't..

[StevieFan13]

The Notorious B.I.G. - Juicy

[Listyguy]

I never thought Juicy would made it this far. It has my vote here as is my favorite rap song of all time.

[EmilienDelRey]

Notorious B.I.G. - Juicy

[prosecutorgodot]

Yeah... I kinda agree that "Paper Planes" is kinda more dance-pop/electropop than hip-hop, and should have been barred similar to how "Hey Ya!" was barred for being more R&B than hip-hop, but...

I can't deny it! "Paper Planes" is a fantastic song that I will defend to the death, and I would say it has a "hip-hop flavor" if you will, with the swagger and attitude and all.

Paper Planes

Also, congrats to Public Enemy, you are a worthy title-holder.

[StevieFan13]

As a hip-hop competition, I have to give my last vote to Juicy, but I do love Paper Planes (all-time #58)

[bonnielaurel]

Paper Planes

[Bang Jan]

Juicy

[Honorio]

1. M.I.A. - Paper Planes
vs.
2. The Notorious B.I.G. - Juicy

I feel ambivalent about M.I.A. getting to the final. Last week I was delighted to see two unorthodox choices getting to semifinals ("Paper Planes" and "The Seed (2.0)") and I chose enthusiastically those two options (don't get me wrong, I chose them not for being unorthodox but for being better –or more enjoyable- in my opinion). But now we have a final that could make some people vote for "Juicy" because "Paper Planes" may not seem Hip Hop enough to deserve winning the whole tournament (StevieFan13 even openly admitted that it was the reason for voting against his own favourite). Now I realize that I should have voted strategically for "The Message" on semifinals and probably we would have had an –IMO- more worthy winner for the game (although predictable, "The Message" is the best Hip Hop song ever according to Acclaimed Music and would have joined "It Takes a Nation of Millions to Hold us Back" at the top, another predictable but worthy winner). So I will shamelessly vote for "Paper Planes." It's not only my favourite song on the final, I see it as a better song (and not only me, it's #42 on the AM main list while "Juicy," being a very good song, is only #760). And moreover, quoting prosecutorgodot, the M.I.A song "has a "hip-hop flavor" if you will, with the swagger and attitude and all." Hope more people go with the unorthodox choice...

[jamieW]

Others have already discussed the reason I'm abstaining from the final. I do prefer "Paper Planes," but I've been surprised all along that it's in a hip-hop contest. I'm all for being as inclusive as possible and have voted for it myself at times. But for it to be the overall winner seems odd to me. "Juicy" is a very good song in its own right, but I'd also feel strange voting for the song I like less. (And I swear this isn't just sour grapes that "Paper Planes" knocked out my all-time favorite, "The Message," last week. )

[slick]

M.I.A. -- Paper Planes

[StevieFan13]

Now I'm in a bind. Should I vote for Paper Planes anyway? I mean, it made Rolling Stone's 100 Greatest Hip-Hop Songs list (...at #97, but still).

[Neil]

Paper Planes / M.I.A.

[Henrik]

Paper Planes

[Live in Phoenix]

Paper Planes

[Krurze]

The Notorious B.I.G. - Juicy

[Gillingham]

Paper planes

[sonofsamiam]

Juicy

[Rocky Raccoon]

Paper Planes for the win. I don't dislike Juicy, I'm just a little confused how it made the final. Also, kudos to Public Enemy, still the best after all these years.

[bootsy]

Paper Planes for the win. I don't dislike Juicy, I'm just a little confused how it made the final. Also, kudos to Public Enemy, still the best after all these years.

You are confused that Juicy, a hip-hop song, not only that a great hip hop song made it to the Hip Hop song finals. LOL OK. Apparently you aren't confused that a non hip hop song Paper Planes did make it to the Finals. You make total sense.

[ordinaryperson]

Winner by a 9-8 vote

[bootsy]

Awesome a non-hip hop song wins the best hip hop song. A song that had no business in this tournament. That's pretty typical of this forum. Absolutely ridiculous. For the winner of the best rock song lets nominate What's Going On and vote it all the way for the win. And lol at Henrik voting for Paper Planes when he hates hip hop and didn't vote the entire tournament. Yeah don't think I didn't catch that nonsense. Yeah I know you just happened to stop by and vote I'm venting and I honestly don't care. The truth needed to be told. Paper Planes my ass.

[Henrik]

Sorry bootsy. I feel bad about this. When I voted basically everyone had voted for "Juicy" so it didn't seem to make any difference.

But don't come again and say that I hate hip hop because I usually vote against hip hop songs in different games. Yes I mostly prefer other genres, but to each his own and I agree with Rocky Raccoon that Public Enemy still rule.

Edit: Uh, I counted and "Juicy" wasn't in a big lead when I voted. It felt that way. Again I'm sorry for stepping in at the last minute and determine the outcome. But I can't be held solely responsible for this, can I?

[bootsy]

Sorry bootsy. I feel bad about this. When I voted basically everyone had voted for "Juicy" so it didn't seem to make any difference.

But don't come again and say that I hate hip hop because I usually vote against hip hop songs in different games. Yes I mostly prefer other genres, but to each his own and I agree with Rocky Raccoon that Public Enemy still rule.

Edit: Uh, I counted and "Juicy" wasn't in a big lead when I voted. It felt that way. Again I'm sorry for stepping in at the last minute and determine the outcome. But I can't be held solely responsible for this, can I?

You didn't vote at any other time besides this round from what I can remember and then you vote for the song that isn't hip hop to tip it. Why did you vote in the finals but not the other rounds? That's fishy. Also I'm suspicious that you didn't know the tally. There were 5 people that voted for Paper Planes before you did. Come on.

And this sentence:

But don't come again and say that I hate hip hop because I usually vote against hip hop songs in different games. Yes I mostly prefer other genres, but to each his own and I agree with Rocky Raccoon that Public Enemy still rule.

You say you don't hate hip hop but you usually vote against in different genres?? That doesn't make much sense if you don't hate it then why do you usually vote against it?

[Henrik]

Because I love other genres more maybe???

Instead of jumping on me, why don't you get happy that hip hop is doing better and better in games like B-sides?

[bootsy]

Because I love other genres more maybe???

Instead of jumping on me, why don't you get happy that hip hop is doing better and better in games like B-sides?

Wow way to deflect the obvious guilt. I don't care about the B-sides. If a hip hop song wins fine but that's not what this is about. You didn't really own up to what you did and I don't have a lot of respect for that and then to shove it off to B-sides. Give me a break. You blatantly voted for Paper Planes because you didn't want Juicy, a legitimate hip hop song to win. You didn't vote throughout the entire tourney and then you decide to vote and vote for the song you knew was not hip hop. I lost some respect for you by doing that and at least not admitting it. Oh well. It's over. I hope you are happy with what you did.

[spiritualized]

Don't feel guilty Henrik, I voted during the whole game and didn't in the final. If I had, I would have voted for Paper Planes, so this argument would be moot. I dont like Juicy.

[Henrik]

Because I love other genres more maybe???

Instead of jumping on me, why don't you get happy that hip hop is doing better and better in games like B-sides?

Wow way to deflect the obvious guilt. I don't care about the B-sides. If a hip hop song wins fine but that's not what this is about. You didn't really own up to what you did and I don't have a lot of respect for that and then to shove it off to B-sides. Give me a break. You blatantly voted for Paper Planes because you didn't want Juicy, a legitimate hip hop song to win. You didn't vote throughout the entire tourney and then you decide to vote and vote for the song you knew was not hip hop. I lost some respect for you by doing that and at least not admitting it. Oh well. It's over. I hope you are happy with what you did.

I haven't participated in the earlier rounds because that would have taken time from the work on the site update. However, I didn't know there was a rule that you can't step in and vote late in the game and the choice was very easy for me in this final, given that apparently "Paper Planes" was considered a hip hop song. But I actually agree with you that it isn't, and that's what makes me feel bad about this.

Yes, take a break. Hopefully you will realise that there are more important things in your life. I am definitely not going to walk around and feel guilty over this.

[StevieFan13]

...it's only a game. I'm cool with Paper Planes winning, honestly. I just hope the R&B tournament is free of controversy.

[bootsy]

...it's only a game. I'm cool with Paper Planes winning, honestly. I just hope the R&B tournament is free of controversy.

I'm not cool with it obviously. The song doesn't represent the genre at all. If you are going to have a tournament that represents great hip hop songs you can't have some poppy worldbeat song like Paper Planes win it and to make it worse WINNING it. That's like say Hey Ya is a hip hop song and it winning. There is nothing hip hop about either of those songs. The hip hop genre gets so disrespected and underrepresented as it is on this forum and to have that song win is embarrassing.

Also saying it's only a game is weak sauce too. To have someone manipulate the game as Henrik did for their own personal pleasure is not 'its only a game'. Also if you are passionate as I am about hip hop and grew up with since the mid 1980s and then have a tournament that represents hip hop and see Paper Planes win above all the hip hop songs isn't just a game to me.

I'm looking forward to Hey Jude winning the best R&B song tournament.

[Honorio]

I'm not cool with it obviously. The song doesn't represent the genre at all. If you are going to have a tournament that represents great hip hop songs you can't have some poppy worldbeat song like Paper Planes win it and to make it worse WINNING it. That's like say Hey Ya is a hip hop song and it winning. There is nothing hip hop about either of those songs. The hip hop genre gets so disrespected and underrepresented as it is on this forum and to have that song win is embarrassing.

Also saying it's only a game is weak sauce too. To have someone manipulate the game as Henrik did for their own personal pleasure is not 'its only a game'. Also if you are passionate as I am about hip hop and grew up with since the mid 1980s and then have a tournament that represents hip hop and see Paper Planes win above all the hip hop songs isn't just a game to me.

I'm looking forward to Hey Jude winning the best R&B song tournament.

Well, we all know that something like that was going to happen. I already explained my mixed feelings about M.I.A. on the final. But when two days ago I made a quick tally only to see how "Paper Planes" was going to win (something unexpected after the first votes) I thought: "Uh-oh, someone's going to get angry..."

I know that as a moderator I should have an equidistant position but (sorry) I can't:

1. I find absolutely unfair to blame Henrik alone for the victory of M.I.A. 9 people voted for M.I.A. while 8 voted for B.I.G. Henrik's vote was no more decisive for the victory than the other 8. While it could be fair to accuse of manipulation to a Site Administrator to introduce injustified bias on the official/objective list (Henrik would never assign more points to non Hip Hop albums/songs/acts on the official main list) it's not fair at all to accuse him (or anyone) about his own tastes (subjective). He (and many others here) have styles that we prefer to Hip Hop but this doesn't imply that we hate Hip Hop. In fact I enjoyed myself this tournament a lot, fantastic choices (thanks to everyone that nominated them). And, of course, no one can blame Henrik for his participation on the games of the Forum he wants to participate, that's not manipulation at all. He (and me and everyone) can vote on any given game for any given choice and at any given point. This is a free world. Well, that's not true, but at least this is a free forum.

2. "Paper Planes" IS a Hip Hop song. There are some traits that can help to define Hip Hop music (using the definition by the Encyclopædia Britannica):
a) The "backing music, which can include digital sampling (music and sounds extracted from other recordings by a DJ)." The backing on "Paper Planes" is typically Hip Hop, using prominently a sample from "Straight to Hell" by The Clash, sample that also provides lyrical inspiration since both songs address the clichés on the immigrants on the first world.
b) "The name [hip-hop] used to refer to a broader cultural movement that includes rap, deejaying (turntable manipulation), graffiti painting, and break dancing." The genre/movement originally arises "in the United States by inner-city African Americans in the 1970s" and obviously M.I.A. doesn't fully belong in the movement because of her age (she was born in 1975), nationality (born in London but she is of of Sri Lankan Tamil origin) and genre (Hip Hop is a mainly male style). And while her music condense a lot of different influences (from Hindi music to Electro), Hip Hop is the basis of her sound. Bradley and DuBois on The Anthology of Rap defined her as a "unlikely hip hop" celebrity, given that the genre was one of several influences behind M.I.A.'s "eccentric and energizing" music and that the musician's unclassifiable sound was one example of how hip hop was changing as it came into contact with other cultures (taken from Wikpedia). On a lyrical level, "Paper Planes" is also quite Hip Hop, "with the swagger and attitude and all" as prosecutorgodot stated, dealing with social themes as many other songs from the genre but changing the subject from the "niggas in da hood" to the immigrants from around the world.
c) The main problem comes with part of the definition of the Encyclopædia Britannica, the "rhythmic and/or rhyming speech chanted ("rapped") to musical accompaniment" is what made many of you not to consider M.I.A. a true rapper and "Paper Planes" a true Hip Hop song. It is supposed that a rapper should speak and not sing. But while in most of her songs M.I.A. uses a more conventional technique of rapping, not singing a particular musical note on the verses (or using only a repeated note), in "Paper Planes" she uses three different notes on the verses. Many of the syllabes are sung in D, falling to A at the end of every verse and pushing to sharp F on the second part of the verses, This produces a particular flow more reminiscing of a child tune that a rap verse. I acknowledge that the verses ares more sung than rapped but in my opinion that's not enough to consider that "Paper Planes" is not a Hip Hop song. It's only an "eccentric and energizing" Hip Hop song.

3. In any case the moment to exclude "Paper Planes" should have been on the nomination phase and not on the final round. Some songs initially included ("Crazy in Love," "Umbrella" and "Hey Ya") were excluded after some discussion but nobody said nothing about "Paper Planes," a song filed under UK Hip Hop on Rateyourmusic and under Alternative Hip Hop on Wikipedia. In fact I'm quite happy to have chosen an eccentric song as the best Hip Hop song. If that's "pretty typical of this forum" I'm OK with it.

4. bootsy, I don't share your opinion about this forum being anti-Hip Hop at all. The considerable amount of participation on this game, the participation on the threads about Hip Hop albums (like the last albums of Kendrick Lamarr or Kanye West) and many others prove my point. And, bootsy, you really should use a more polite way to address the participants of the Forum.

On a side note: congratulations, ordinaryperson, for hosting the game!

[StevieFan13]

I'm not cool with it obviously. The song doesn't represent the genre at all. If you are going to have a tournament that represents great hip hop songs you can't have some poppy worldbeat song like Paper Planes win it and to make it worse WINNING it. That's like say Hey Ya is a hip hop song and it winning. There is nothing hip hop about either of those songs. The hip hop genre gets so disrespected and underrepresented as it is on this forum and to have that song win is embarrassing.

Also saying it's only a game is weak sauce too. To have someone manipulate the game as Henrik did for their own personal pleasure is not 'its only a game'. Also if you are passionate as I am about hip hop and grew up with since the mid 1980s and then have a tournament that represents hip hop and see Paper Planes win above all the hip hop songs isn't just a game to me.

I'm looking forward to Hey Jude winning the best R&B song tournament.

Well, we all know that something like that was going to happen. I already explained my mixed feelings about M.I.A. on the final. But when two days ago I made a quick tally only to see how "Paper Planes" was going to win (something unexpected after the first votes) I thought: "Uh-oh, someone's going to get angry..."

I know that as a moderator I should have an equidistant position but (sorry) I can't:

1. I find absolutely unfair to blame Henrik alone for the victory of M.I.A. 9 people voted for M.I.A. while 8 voted for B.I.G. Henrik's vote was no more decisive for the victory than the other 8. While it could be fair to accuse of manipulation to a Site Administrator to introduce injustified bias on the official/objective list (Henrik would never assign more points to non Hip Hop albums/songs/acts on the official main list) it's not fair at all to accuse him (or anyone) about his own tastes (subjective). He (and many others here) have styles that we prefer to Hip Hop but this doesn't imply that we hate Hip Hop. In fact I enjoyed myself this tournament a lot, fantastic choices (thanks to everyone that nominated them). And, of course, no one can blame Henrik for his participation on the games of the Forum he wants to participate, that's not manipulation at all. He (and me and everyone) can vote on any given game for any given choice and at any given point. This is a free world. Well, that's not true, but at least this is a free forum.

2. "Paper Planes" IS a Hip Hop song. There are some traits that can help to define Hip Hop music (using the definition by the Encyclopædia Britannica):
a) The "backing music, which can include digital sampling (music and sounds extracted from other recordings by a DJ)." The backing on "Paper Planes" is typically Hip Hop, using prominently a sample from "Straight to Hell" by The Clash, sample that also provides lyrical inspiration since both songs address the clichés on the immigrants on the first world.
b) "The name [hip-hop] used to refer to a broader cultural movement that includes rap, deejaying (turntable manipulation), graffiti painting, and break dancing." The genre/movement originally arises "in the United States by inner-city African Americans in the 1970s" and obviously M.I.A. doesn't fully belong in the movement because of her age (she was born in 1975), nationality (born in London but she is of of Sri Lankan Tamil origin) and genre (Hip Hop is a mainly male style). And while her music condense a lot of different influences (from Hindi music to Electro), Hip Hop is the basis of her sound. Bradley and DuBois on The Anthology of Rap defined her as a "unlikely hip hop" celebrity, given that the genre was one of several influences behind M.I.A.'s "eccentric and energizing" music and that the musician's unclassifiable sound was one example of how hip hop was changing as it came into contact with other cultures (taken from Wikpedia). On a lyrical level, "Paper Planes" is also quite Hip Hop, "with the swagger and attitude and all" as prosecutorgodot stated, dealing with social themes as many other songs from the genre but changing the subject from the "niggas in da hood" to the immigrants from around the world.
c) The main problem comes with part of the definition of the Encyclopædia Britannica, the "rhythmic and/or rhyming speech chanted ("rapped") to musical accompaniment" is what made many of you not to consider M.I.A. a true rapper and "Paper Planes" a true Hip Hop song. It is supposed that a rapper should speak and not sing. But while in most of her songs M.I.A. uses a more conventional technique of rapping, not singing a particular musical note on the verses (or using only a repeated note), in "Paper Planes" she uses three different notes on the verses. Many of the syllabes are sung in D, falling to A at the end of every verse and pushing to sharp F on the second part of the verses, This produces a particular flow more reminiscing of a child tune that a rap verse. I acknowledge that the verses ares more sung than rapped but in my opinion that's not enough to consider that "Paper Planes" is not a Hip Hop song. It's only an "eccentric and energizing" Hip Hop song.

3. In any case the moment to exclude "Paper Planes" should have been on the nomination phase and not on the final round. Some songs initially included ("Crazy in Love," "Umbrella" and "Hey Ya") were excluded after some discussion but nobody said nothing about "Paper Planes," a song filed under UK Hip Hop on Rateyourmusic and under Alternative Hip Hop on Wikipedia. In fact I'm quite happy to have chosen an eccentric song as the best Hip Hop song. It that's "pretty typical of this forum" I'm OK with it.

4. bootsy, I don't share your opinion about this forum being anti-Hip Hop at all. The considerable amount of participation on this game, the participation on the threads about Hip Hop albums (like the last albums of Kendrick Lamarr or Kanye West) and many others prove my point. And, bootsy, you really should use a more polite way to address the participants of the Forum.

On a side note: congratulations, ordinaryperson, for hosting the game!

Couldn't agree more. As M.I.A. would say, everyone's a winner.

[Nick]

Bootsy, you're getting upset over a meaningless forum poll conducted solely for fun. Not only that, but you're needlessly insulting Henrik, a man who has worked very, very hard to bring us the AM lists and this forum. I think you need to take a break from the computer and come back when you're a bit more composed.

[bootsy]

Bootsy, you're getting upset over a meaningless forum poll conducted solely for fun. Not only that, but you're needlessly insulting Henrik, a man who has worked very, very hard to bring us the AM lists and this forum. I think you need to take a break from the computer and come back when you're a bit more composed.

It's the principle of how the poll was constructed. Putting that song in the poll to begin with was a terrible idea and then the rest of the results after that. What you think is meaningless is not to me and it may not be to another person. Just because you think it's meaningless doesn't mean we all think like you. Let me vent, have my frustrations about it and leave it at that and stop trying to tell me how to feel. I get so tired of people that tell you how you should feel. You can't tell me how I should feel. If I want to get upset about a 'meaningless poll' then let me get upset about it. If you don't want to get upset then you have every right not to. I'm not telling you 'hey Nick why don't you get upset about this like I am'. That wouldn't be fair to you. That's what makes this world a beautiful place at times is that we don't all think alike. Sometimes that can be dangerous too as we all know. So don't tell me how I should feel about it.

[Henrik]

There's no need to discuss this further. I'm locking the thread.