What predictions do you have for the top 400 of next year?

[letmeintomyzone]

What albums from this year will make the top 400 next year?

To Pimp a Butterfly (has a chance of hitting top 100)
Carrie and Lowell

[GucciLittlePiggy]

My conservative rankings:

To Pimp a Butterfly - 150-200
Carrie & Lowell - 200-250
I Love You, Honeybear - 400-500
In Colour - 400-500
Sometimes I Sit and Think, and Sometimes I Just Sit - 400-500

I think Currents may have an outside shot at top 500, though I'm hoping it will one day topple Lonerism.

[letmeintomyzone]

My conservative rankings:

To Pimp a Butterfly - 150-200
Carrie & Lowell - 200-250
I Love You, Honeybear - 400-500
In Colour - 400-500
Sometimes I Sit and Think, and Sometimes I Just Sit - 400-500

I think Currents may have an outside shot at top 500, though I'm hoping it will one day topple Lonerism.

Any albums you think will be bumped into the top 400?

[Nick]

My conservative rankings:

To Pimp a Butterfly - 150-200
Carrie & Lowell - 200-250
I Love You, Honeybear - 400-500
In Colour - 400-500
Sometimes I Sit and Think, and Sometimes I Just Sit - 400-500

I agree with all of this, but I'd put TPAB at about 120-170 or so. I'm predicting it to become the second highest ranked album of the decade.

[Listyguy]

Yeah I can't imagine To Pimp a Butterfly cracking the top 100, especially with the amount of time it took My Beautiful Dark Twisted Fantasy to get into that realm. Probably around the 130 mark, which I believe is where Channel Orange debuted back in the day.

[Nassim]

Any albums you think will be bumped into the top 400?

Black Messiah is already #669, should bump around 400 with the new lists that mentioned it.

[letmeintomyzone]

Any albums you think will be bumped into the top 400?

Black Messiah is already #669, should bump around 400 with the new lists that mentioned it.

I think it lacks the buzz, tho

[Jirin]

Why does it seem that new albums need to be vulgar and provocative to have any kind of shot at the top 100? Why can't an album just focus on good songwriting and/or virtuosic instrument playing and get serious critical attention? MBDTF, To Pimp A Butterfly, do you have to talk about dicks not being free and n*****s washing their ass to be considered a great album now?

[GucciLittlePiggy]

Why does it seem that new albums need to be vulgar and provocative to have any kind of shot at the top 100? Why can't an album just focus on good songwriting and/or virtuosic instrument playing and get serious critical attention? MBDTF, To Pimp A Butterfly, do you have to talk about dicks not being free and n*****s washing their ass to be considered a great album now?

Well, MBDTF isn't known for its great songwriting, but more for its themes, structure, and, in the opinion of many, fantastic production, groundbreaking for a hip hop album. To Pimp a Butterfly on the other hand is entirely good songwriting and virtuosic instrument playing, in my opinion. And Kendrick is a chameleon with his flows, the likes of which we rarely see.

But I think there are plenty of reasons both these albums are/will be ranked so highly and none of them are because of the vulgar lyrics. Both albums are ambitious concept albums by established artists, and critics tend to gush over those albums when handled well. And I think hip hop is reaching another peak in critical acclaim so naturally these albums are going to get a boost.

Kanye always has loads of hype surrounding him and his albums (you schooled me on this in another thread) so his "comeback" after the '09 VMAs and the lukewarm reception for 808s was sure to get heaps of accolades if it was a return to form. And Kendrick was coming off a modern classic so he had all eyes on him, so again, a great album was sure to be elevated to ionosphere-levels of acclaim. Also, TPAB came out at a time of well publicized racial tension in America so the timing was right.

And to go back to the vulgarity of the lyrics in K Dot's album, I guess the only defense I have is that's just the way he talks. Personally, I don't find it offensive in songs and I don't think most of the critics these days do either. I can understand where certain phrases can be turnoffs but after many intensive listens, I don't think there's a single word wasted in TPAB, and that's why it's my favorite album ever from a strictly lyrical standpoint. I'm not particularly privy to the black experience in urban LA, being a white dude in small town Ohio, nor am I adept at explaining in writing my thoughts on lyrics, so I have no choice but to reference Rap Genius.

"My dick ain't free."
"For Free?" - http://genius.com/Kendrick-lamar-for-fr ... ude-lyrics

"Shit don't change..."
"Institutionalized" - http://genius.com/Kendrick-lamar-instit ... zed-lyrics

I know in other threads you have mentioned that you've listened to TPAB many times, so if you don't like it by now then you just won't like it. But I just had to defend my favorite album of all-time and my favorite album of 2015.

[Nick]

Why does it seem that new albums need to be vulgar and provocative to have any kind of shot at the top 100? Why can't an album just focus on good songwriting and/or virtuosic instrument playing and get serious critical attention? MBDTF, To Pimp A Butterfly, do you have to talk about dicks not being free and n*****s washing their ass to be considered a great album now?

Because hip-hop is currently en vogue critically, and hip-hop has (generally speaking) always been vulgar and provocative, from "Straight Outta Compton" to "The Chronic" to "The Marshall Mathers LP".

So I don't think it's a question of "why do new albums need to be vulgar and provocative to have any kind of shot at the top 100?" but instead it's a question of "why do new albums need to be hip-hop in order to have any kind of shot at the top 100?"

[PlasticRam]

the lukewarm reception for 808s was sure to get heaps of accolades if it was a return to form.

More like critics were realizing that they'd been wrong about 808s so they were ready to for sure make up for it.

Kind of like The Bends didn't get such good reviews from contemporary critics so then the next album OK Computer was praised to heaven. This was Jonny Greenwood's theory.

[PlasticRam]

Why does it seem that new albums need to be vulgar and provocative to have any kind of shot at the top 100? Why can't an album just focus on good songwriting and/or virtuosic instrument playing and get serious critical attention? MBDTF, To Pimp A Butterfly, do you have to talk about dicks not being free and n*****s washing their ass to be considered a great album now?

Because hip-hop is currently en vogue critically, and hip-hop has (generally speaking) always been vulgar and provocative, from "Straight Outta Compton" to "The Chronic" to "The Marshall Mathers LP".

That's another way how 808s and Heartbreak changed the landscape of hip-hop. Artists like Drake, Frank Ocean and The Weeknd are popular.

[bootsy]

Why does it seem that new albums need to be vulgar and provocative to have any kind of shot at the top 100? Why can't an album just focus on good songwriting and/or virtuosic instrument playing and get serious critical attention? MBDTF, To Pimp A Butterfly, do you have to talk about dicks not being free and n*****s washing their ass to be considered a great album now?

Good Lord man you sound like some old grandpa. Not every great hip hop album is like this and you are really stereotyping the genre by doing this. Please stop. I get so tired of people putting down hip hop like this especially on here. Look if you don't like hip hop fine but please stop going to the instrument card. So someone playing instrument is the only music that should qualify for being a great album. Give me a break. Hip hop is not about instrument play. It never has been and I hope it never will be that is what makes the genre unique, fresh and interesting from other genres. And there is plenty of great songwriting in hip hop as well. Let's have the entire top 100 full of The Beatles, Dylan, the Stones, and Neil Young like there isn't enough already of that and no one else. What a complete bore that would be.

[Harold]

Why does it seem that new albums need to be vulgar and provocative to have any kind of shot at the top 100? Why can't an album just focus on good songwriting and/or virtuosic instrument playing and get serious critical attention? MBDTF, To Pimp A Butterfly, do you have to talk about dicks not being free and n*****s washing their ass to be considered a great album now?

I can't (and won't) say anything that GucciLittlePiggy hasn't already said in his eloquent response, but I just feel the need to chime in with this: Really? With all the abundant musical and lyrical invention on the album, not to mention the palpable passion that Lamar has for both his art/craft and for political/social change/commentary, all that you can hear is vulgarity (represented, as GLP has also pointed out, by two examples that, while pungent, are also quite clearly and transparently metaphors for much larger ideas)? That's all you can hear? Really?

I mean, obviously your opinion is your opinion. To each their own. But if you can't find good songwriting on TPaB, you've just tuned out without even trying to find it. And by the way - there actually are quite a few musicians playing instruments, sometimes even virtuosically, all over the album. But if all you can hear is Kendrick's big dick coming out of your left ear (to paraphrase Reservoir Dogs), I can see how you might have missed that, too.

[Jirin]

To clarify, I think To Pimp A Butterfly is a great album, that is more than just vulgarity, and absolutely deserves its acclaim. It may fall in my top five of the year. Just I think other albums that also deserve the same level of acclaim are denied it because people are conflating provocativeness with courage and insightfulness. It's the same credit given to The Orange, people say he has 'balls' because he's provocative.

And I think TPaB would also be denied its rightful acclaim by critics if it did not have so many lyrics about bitch fucking. Hip hop albums that have less vulgarity don't get the same level of acclaim. An album can be great and also vulgar as TPaB proves, but albums that are great but not vulgar don't get the same respect.

[GucciLittlePiggy]

I see your point a little clearer now. I jumped to the conclusion you were trashing the album.

I respect your opinion in your first paragraph, though I personally think TPAB is, indeed, courageous, insightful, and provocative, and I don't think the latter takes away from the record in the slightest.

And I agree there is a trend that the most highly acclaimed hip hop albums and songs happen to be vulgar. I'm inclined to believe this is mostly due to the fact that most of hip hop (at least the hip hop I'm familiar with) is full of vulgarity, so there just aren't as many examples of great albums with little to no vulgar content. There are some exceptions, though. 3 Feet High and Rising is explicit but doesn't have all that much vulgarity. I definitely don't think critics intentionally focus on vulgar hip hop records, as I have never met anyone who praised an album specifically because of the vulgarity, but I could (probably) be wrong.

[notbrianeno]

The trend of vulgarity with critical acclaim in hip hop to me seems more of a coincidence. Rappers less likely to swear are more often than not pop-rappers (Macklemore, Pitbull, Will Smith), or a niche genre (Christian rappers like Lecrae), two genres which in my opinion have not produced anything that can artistically match the considerably more "vulgar" albums in the hip hop canon (The Blueprint, To Pimp a Butterfly , etc.)

Artists like The Roots, on the other hand, have generated significant critical acclaim, with only a fraction of the explicit content as artists like Kanye or Jay Z, perhaps they might be up your alley Jirin! I strongly recommend their 2011 album undun.

*Two cents from a guy with a Kendrick avi

[bootsy]

To clarify, I think To Pimp A Butterfly is a great album, that is more than just vulgarity, and absolutely deserves its acclaim. It may fall in my top five of the year. Just I think other albums that also deserve the same level of acclaim are denied it because people are conflating provocativeness with courage and insightfulness. It's the same credit given to The Orange, people say he has 'balls' because he's provocative.

And I think TPaB would also be denied its rightful acclaim by critics if it did not have so many lyrics about bitch fucking. Hip hop albums that have less vulgarity don't get the same level of acclaim. An album can be great and also vulgar as TPaB proves, but albums that are great but not vulgar don't get the same respect.

This is not true. Albums by Outkast, Public Enemy, A Tribe Called Quest, De La Soul, Eric B. and Rakim, The Roots with less vulgarity get plenty of acclaim. Unless you are talking about new more recent albums then I might see your point a little bit.

[Harold]

Jirin, thanks for the clarification - I remember you saying that you liked the album when it came out, and I'm sorry if I went off on you a little up there. I still disagree, but your point is clearer.

For the definitive statement on vulgarity in hip-hop (albeit related more to popularity than to critical acclaim, and also albeit from a white dude), let's defer to one Mr. Mathers: "Will Smith don't gotta cuss in his raps to sell records/Well, I do, so fuck him/And fuck you, too!" Maybe not his most creative lyric ever, but I laughed my ass off when I first heard it, and I'm betting most of you did, too.

[Jirin]

And please stop telling me I'm biased against rap. You know how highly I place Public Enemy. What I dislike is lyrics about adolescent male domination fantasies. I don't like it when AC/DC or Guns N Roses do it, and I'm not going to suddenly think boasting about misogyny and casual violence is cool just because the genre is rap.

If something is adolescent when if it showed up in a rock song, it's not any less adolescent in a rap song.

[bootsy]

And please stop telling me I'm biased against rap. You know how highly I place Public Enemy. What I dislike is lyrics about adolescent male domination fantasies. I don't like it when AC/DC or Guns N Roses do it, and I'm not going to suddenly think boasting about misogyny and casual violence is cool just because the genre is rap.

If something is adolescent when if it showed up in a rock song, it's not any less adolescent in a rap song.

Well posting something like this:

Why does it seem that new albums need to be vulgar and provocative to have any kind of shot at the top 100? Why can't an album just focus on good songwriting and/or virtuosic instrument playing and get serious critical attention? MBDTF, To Pimp A Butterfly, do you have to talk about dicks not being free and n*****s washing their ass to be considered a great album now?

Is why I said you are biased against rap. If you don't want to be called out for that then don't come with bs like this. As for 'you know how highly I place Public Enemy' this is a little like telling someone 'some of my best friends are black' and then mention one work associate who is black. So what? Having Public Enemy high on your list doesn't excuse your post above. To me it doesn't. And you are still on the lyrics thing, if you don't like it don't listen to it. No one is forcing you to but there is no need to continue to post about it.

[mowino]

To Pimp A Butterfly and Carrie & Lowell are runaway leaders. Top 200 surely, for both albums

Hopefully Summertime '06 somehow ends up in the top 1000

[spiritualized]

I missed this thread entirely at the time; but I must say that I am totally, completely in phase with Jirin. It *feels* today that vulgarity is added to make an album sell because it appeals to the teenagers masses. And don't get me wrong, a bit of profanity is welcome anytime (hint hint Rage Against The Machine and many more) but to express anger. What worries me is the target of this profanity. Whilst it seems OK to me to rant against governments or society in general, I don't "get" the hip hop trend to n****er this and bitch that. It seems far more personal to me, an attack generally aimed at women. I am not sure the impressionable teenagers should be hammered with that message. Are they attracted by the general meaning of the lyrics or the music ? Perhaps a bit of both - but in any case, I am not a huge fan of it. And profanity loses its power when overused.
I find it all the more powerful when hip hop artists use profane words at the right time, not all the time.

Some, Bootsy quoted them already, even do without it and their message is all the stronger.
Maybe it's the not-yet grandpa in me that talks. However, being the father of two girls - I am not sure I would want someone to say those words to them...nuff said.

[prosecutorgodot]

Why does it seem that new albums need to be vulgar and provocative to have any kind of shot at the top 100? Why can't an album just focus on good songwriting and/or virtuosic instrument playing and get serious critical attention? MBDTF, To Pimp A Butterfly, do you have to talk about dicks not being free and n*****s washing their ass to be considered a great album now?

Ha-ha I don't know if you enjoy Blackstar, but I could make the same argument about that album. "Girl Loves Me" anyone?

I think that you're dwelling on the things that irk you too much. For example, I don't think critics praise "For Free?" because of the vulgarity, but because it is really creative musically.

But to sort of "take your side" for a second, it just so happens that the greatest musical minds right now are very in-your-face. That's all it is. If MBDTF and TPAB were mediocre musically, I don't think they would be getting nearly as much praise.

Finally, you mention that other albums are not getting mentioned. I think you should elaborate on this point further.

[Harold]

Ha-ha I don't know if you enjoy Blackstar, but I could make the same argument about that album. "Girl Loves Me" anyone?

Not to mention " 'Tis a Pity She Was a Whore." There's a reason the lyrics to the second verse aren't printed in the booklet.

With regard to Mr. Lamar, while it's true that "For Free?" is incredibly in-your-face, with "THIS! DICK! AIN'T! FREE-EE-EE!" repeated over and over, even a cursory listen to the track as a whole reveals that he's not talking, per se, about his you-know-what - he's not free, i.e., his talents/labors aren't free (of course, over the span of the album the idea of an individual being or not being "free" takes on a multitude of meanings). And even if it was just about his dick, the flow and the music behind it are so breathtaking that it might not even matter.