Question about Pazz & Jop weight

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Henrik
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Question about Pazz & Jop weight

Post by Henrik »

I would like to hear your opinion on a weighting issue for the AM list.

Various things have an influence on the weight of a critics' list, but the number of critics, or ballots, is not one of them as this parameter is usually unknown. The only exception is Village Voice's Pazz & Jop poll, which includes hundreds of ballots per year. I would like to know if you agree that the Pazz & Jop poll gets weighting bonus because of this.

The plus side is rather obvious. The poll is huge, and well-known, compared to a lists from magazines or e-zines.

The negative side is more of a speculative kind. With its many ballots, it could be argued that the P&J lists converge just as much to sales charts as to the typical critics' viewpoint. Hence, the number of ballots is not something that should be rewarded in the formula.

So, what do you think? Have your say.

PS. This question might be a bit "dangerous", as I can imagine that some of you have rather strong opinions, so please be nice! If this turns out to a verbal fight, I will delete the thread. There is no right or wrong. I just want to see which alternative that is favored my most people here in the forum.
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Re: Question about Pazz & Jop weight

Post by Harold »

P&J should probably have some weight, as you imply, simply because of its size and status. If you want to reduce the degree of that weight, feel free - but don't do so out of some concern that because of its size the poll "converges" to sales charts somehow. (I'm not 100% clear what you're implying there - that the poll is unduly influenced by popularity?)
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Re: Question about Pazz & Jop weight

Post by Luke JR68 »

I agree with Harold that some weighting is the way to go. I'm a little curious on two issues though.

Firstly, since Pazz & Jop participation after 1997 has been significantly higher than the any of the polls up to that point, will the recent results be given less weight to compensate, or is that not a problem?

Secondly, will it just be flat totals for mentions (Yeezus received 160 mentions while whokill received 135 mentions), or will it take into account the total participants in any individual poll (Yeezus received 160 mentions out of 457 voters while whokill received 135 mentions out of 700 voters)? I know this would complicate the song polls since Christgau didn't keep great records of how many voters filled out song ballots in any given year, so I'm not sure if that's a factor worth considering or not.
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Re: Question about Pazz & Jop weight

Post by Jirin »

I'd say the risk of giving Pazz N Jop a higher weight based on the number of critics is that it may have the effect of the American electoral college on the results.

Just like, if there is a high population state where 51% of the vote goes to one candidate, then 100% of the vote from that state essentially goes to that candidate. The same thing could happen with Pazz N Jop. Out of 457 critics, 160 voted for Yeezus. So do we want to weight it for all 457 critics or just the 160 who voted for it? In general with these polls only around 1/3 of the voters voted for the winner, and by the time you get down to #10 it's less than one out of every ten. And if the majority of the voters are selected from similar musical backgrounds, we are giving a huge advantage to the mean tastes of that background, and to the individuals who happen to have greater exposure and hype within that one circle.

Polls that count up a massive number of ballots instead of reflecting the thoughtful collaboration of a few individuals create a false sense of consensus, and it makes it so votes for broad appeal albums count more than votes for lesser appeal albums. (Voting for a less well known album would be similar to voting for Ralph Nader). Now, if there is a way to factor in every single individual ballot instead of just giving a huge weight to the full list, that would be awesome. There's far more variation in the individual lists than in the average list.
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Re: Question about Pazz & Jop weight

Post by Henrik »

Harold wrote:If you want to reduce the degree of that weight, feel free - but don't do so out of some concern that because of its size the poll "converges" to sales charts somehow. (I'm not 100% clear what you're implying there - that the poll is unduly influenced by popularity?)
I'm not really talking about album #1, more about song #50. Whether I give Pazz & Jop a 0%, 50% or 100% extra weight would not have much of an impact on Yeezus' AM position, but it will have a substantial impact on albums and songs further down the AM lists. With great help from the P&J lists, we will have some best-selling songs on the upcoming list of 6,000 songs, that should I say, are not the usual critics' suspects. Here's a few examples:

Crank That (Soulja Boy)
Macarena
Save a Horse (Ride a Cowboy)
Boom Boom Pow
Livin' La Vida Loca

What I meant with "converges to sales charts" was that the P&J lists might show what the voters have been exposed to, rather than what the voters loved most.
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Re: Question about Pazz & Jop weight

Post by Henrik »

Henrik wrote:What I meant with "converges to sales charts" was that the P&J lists might show what the voters have been exposed to, rather than what the voters loved most.
I really don't know how the magazines make their lists, but let's say we have two songs, A and B.

A: 3 out of 10 writers like a song, 4 think it's ok and 3 have not heard it
B: 3 out of 10 writers like a song and the other 7 don't like it

I would hope that in cases like this, they put song A higher than song B. In Pazz & Jop however, they would be tied.
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Re: Question about Pazz & Jop weight

Post by Luke JR68 »

Henrik wrote:
Henrik wrote:What I meant with "converges to sales charts" was that the P&J lists might show what the voters have been exposed to, rather than what the voters loved most.
I really don't know how the magazines make their lists, but let's say we have two songs, A and B.

A: 3 out of 10 writers like a song, 4 think it's ok and 3 have not heard it
B: 3 out of 10 writers like a song and the other 7 don't like it

I would hope that in cases like this, they put song A higher than song B. In Pazz & Jop however, they would be tied.
Thanks for taking the time to elaborate on your concerns Henrik, I understand where you are coming from now :D
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Re: Question about Pazz & Jop weight

Post by Bruce »

Henrik wrote:
Henrik wrote:What I meant with "converges to sales charts" was that the P&J lists might show what the voters have been exposed to, rather than what the voters loved most.
I really don't know how the magazines make their lists, but let's say we have two songs, A and B.

A: 3 out of 10 writers like a song, 4 think it's ok and 3 have not heard it
B: 3 out of 10 writers like a song and the other 7 don't like it

I would hope that in cases like this, they put song A higher than song B. In Pazz & Jop however, they would be tied.
In our polls here if someone does not like a song it has no effect on the outcome.
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Re: Question about Pazz & Jop weight

Post by Henrik »

Bruce wrote:In our polls here if someone does not like a song it has no effect on the outcome.
Yes it does in some of our polls. For the decade polls, after 15 albums and songs have been selected from each year, everyone is asked to rank everything they have heard, from best to worst. In the moderately acclaimed poll, and every other tournament game, you can only vote in match-ups where you have heard both albums/songs. Not to mention the survivor games...
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Re: Question about Pazz & Jop weight

Post by Bruce »

Henrik wrote:
Bruce wrote:In our polls here if someone does not like a song it has no effect on the outcome.
Yes it does in some of our polls. For the decade polls, after 15 albums and songs have been selected from each year, everyone is asked to rank everything they have heard, from best to worst.
Instead of best to worst everyone should rate each item from 0 to 10.

10-Incredibly Awesome
9-Great
8-Excellent
7-Very Good
6-Good
5-Pretty Good
4-Okay
3-Not Very Good
2-Bad
1-Terrible
0-Unbelievably Horrible
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Re: Question about Pazz & Jop weight

Post by Henrik »

Bruce wrote:
Henrik wrote:
Bruce wrote:In our polls here if someone does not like a song it has no effect on the outcome.
Yes it does in some of our polls. For the decade polls, after 15 albums and songs have been selected from each year, everyone is asked to rank everything they have heard, from best to worst.
Instead of best to worst everyone should rate each item from 0 to 10.

10-Incredibly Awesome
9-Great
8-Excellent
7-Very Good
6-Good
5-Pretty Good
4-Okay
3-Not Very Good
2-Bad
1-Terrible
0-Unbelievably Horrible
That system is used too in the 2014 MegaCritic Chart of AMers. Each design has its pros and cons.
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Re: Question about Pazz & Jop weight

Post by Bruce »

Henrik wrote:[Each design has its pros and cons.
What do you see as the cons of the 0 to 10 system?
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Re: Question about Pazz & Jop weight

Post by Henrik »

Bruce wrote:
Henrik wrote:[Each design has its pros and cons.
What do you see as the cons of the 0 to 10 system?
Well, usually people tend to rate most albums or whatever on the upper half of the scale. A score of 1 might then be considered as having too much impact on the average score. I think that is somewhat of an issue for the average ratings at imdb, metacritic, rym, etc.
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Re: Question about Pazz & Jop weight

Post by Bruce »

Henrik wrote:
Bruce wrote:
Henrik wrote:[Each design has its pros and cons.
What do you see as the cons of the 0 to 10 system?
Well, usually people tend to rate most albums or whatever on the upper half of the scale. A score of 1 might then be considered as having too much impact on the average score. I think that is somewhat of an issue for the average ratings at imdb, metacritic, rym, etc.
That's because most people only rate albums that they like.

On polarizing albums by acts like Velvet Underground and the Swans, I feel that the fact that many of us HATE those albums, it should be reflected in their standing.

If 10 people vote and 5 of them love the VU and 5 of them hate the VU, that should not do as well as an album that hardly anyone hates like "Rumors" by Fleetwood Mac.

For instance, the VU debut album gets scores of 10-10-10-10-9-1-1-0-0-0 that's 51 points

The "Rumors" albums gets 9-9-8-8-7-7-7-6-6-5 for 72 points.

The Fleetwood Mac album should rate much higher than the VU album, even though 4 of the 10 people gave the VU album the top rating.

If an album is polarizing, as in many love it but also many hate it, it should not rate near as high as an album that almost everybody likes or loves.
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Re: Question about Pazz & Jop weight

Post by Jirin »

I disagree with that, I think an album that some hate and some love should rank higher than an album everybody thinks is okay. Mostly because this system makes the list more useful for recommendations. If an album gets 10-10-10-10-10-0-0-0-0-0 I see that as "There is a fifty-fifty chance I will think this is an amazing album". If an album gets 5-5-5-5-5-5-5-5-5-5 I see that as "I am almost absolutely certain I will find this average and boring".

For me finding a new album I consider a 0 is equal to finding a new album I consider a 5. In either case I will not have made a new discovery.

I think the drawback of the 0-10 system is that the distribution of ratings is not a bell curve, it's got a long tail leading downward. That's why I prefer win-loss systems like the one Henrik uses. For most people, the distance between (For example) an 8 and a 9 is much bigger than the distance between a 5 and a 6, so just taking an average would not reflect that people giving it a 9 are saying "No, this album is truly exceptional". At the very least you need to normalize for the rating trends of each individual voter. For the typical voter, giving an exceptionally high rating is a stronger statement than giving an exceptionally low rating. A good list is one that is inclusive for all the albums that people are passionate about, not just the ones everybody agrees on.

What do you want a recommendation list to really represent? I think it should be the list that has the highest odds of finding me a new personal favorite. I am far more likely to find that on a list that is made up of the absolute favorites of every subgroup than on a list that is made up of the stuff just about everybody can agree is pretty decent.
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Re: Question about Pazz & Jop weight

Post by Bruce »

Jirin wrote:I disagree with that, I think an album that some hate and some love should rank higher than an album everybody thinks is okay. Mostly because this system makes the list more useful for recommendations. If an album gets 10-10-10-10-10-0-0-0-0-0 I see that as "There is a fifty-fifty chance I will think this is an amazing album". If an album gets 5-5-5-5-5-5-5-5-5-5 I see that as "I am almost absolutely certain I will find this average and boring".
We're not ranking the greatest albums to give YOU or anybody else a recommendation.
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Re: Question about Pazz & Jop weight

Post by Bruce »

Jirin wrote: For the typical voter, giving an exceptionally high rating is a stronger statement than giving an exceptionally low rating.
I guess I'm not a typical voter. I have lots more 8s, 9s and 10s than I have 0s, 1s and 2s.

Jirin wrote: I think it should be the list that has the highest odds of finding me a new personal favorite.
I don't agree. I think it should reflect the best chance that an average listener will like it.

You need to stop having selfish motives about this.
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Re: Question about Pazz & Jop weight

Post by Luke JR68 »

Bruce wrote:
Jirin wrote: For the typical voter, giving an exceptionally high rating is a stronger statement than giving an exceptionally low rating.
I guess I'm not a typical voter. I have lots more 8s, 9s and 10s than I have 0s, 1s and 2s.
That should really be the case with most people. Although there may be more songs/albums that fit the low criteria, if you're going to avoid the work like the plague anyway, why take the time to rate it at all?
Bruce wrote:
Jirin wrote: I think it should be the list that has the highest odds of finding me a new personal favorite.
I don't agree. I think it should reflect the best chance that an average listener will like it.

You need to stop having selfish motives about this.
Hmmm... I have to agree with Jirin on this one. Music that appeals to as many people as possible are well and good, but those works rarely become anyone's favourite. However, by limiting the scope of the list a little, you get music that won't appeal to nearly as many people, but is more likely to be enjoyed immensely by those who like it :music-listening:
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Re: Question about Pazz & Jop weight

Post by digifuwill »

It's not "Most Popular Music". It's "Acclaimed Music". I.e., music that people think is great. I have a hard time seeing how a record that gets 7s across the board is more acclaimed than one that splits between 10s and 1s. No doubt are you gonna go my way is going to appeal to more people than trout mask replica, but one could hardly call the lenny kravitz album more acclaimed.

And rather than accuse others of having selfish motives, you might want to explain why you feel it's so important that others' strong reccomendations are counterbalanced by your and others' disapproval.
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Re: Question about Pazz & Jop weight

Post by Bruce »

Luke JR68 wrote: Music that appeals to as many people as possible are well and good, but those works rarely become anyone's favourite. However, by limiting the scope of the list a little, you get music that won't appeal to nearly as many people, but is more likely to be enjoyed immensely by those who like it :music-listening:
First off, I think you're 100% wrong here. There are lots more people in the world who have "Thriller" or "Rumours" as their favorite album than there are people who have "VU & Nico" as their favorite album.

Secondly, ranking the greatest songs or albums of all time is NOT about extremes. It's not about finding obscure favorites for elitist music affacienados. It's about identifying the works that the highest percentage of people will really like or love.
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Re: Question about Pazz & Jop weight

Post by Bruce »

digifuwill wrote:It's not "Most Popular Music". It's "Acclaimed Music". I.e., music that people think is great. I have a hard time seeing how a record that gets 7s across the board is more acclaimed than one that splits between 10s and 1s. No doubt are you gonna go my way is going to appeal to more people than trout mask replica, but one could hardly call the lenny kravitz album more acclaimed.

And rather than accuse others of having selfish motives, you might want to explain why you feel it's so important that others' strong reccomendations are counterbalanced by your and others' disapproval.
Because everybody's opinion holds equal weight in my book. Somebody who works for a music magazine has no better musical taste than a plumber IMO. I know a couple of plumbers who have much better musical taste than any music writer I have ever read.
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Re: Question about Pazz & Jop weight

Post by Bruce »

digifuwill wrote:It's not "Most Popular Music". It's "Acclaimed Music".
Actually the site should be called "Critically Acclaimed Music," because there are lots of other types of acclaim aside from that coming from critics.
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Re: Question about Pazz & Jop weight

Post by DocBrown »

I had thought this thread rather drifted away from the initial question posed by Henrik, but strangely enough it might have come full circle. Do the Pazz & Jop results tend towards a lowest common denominator (as most broad polls do) and therefore away from the stated purpose of AM, to identify the most recommended songs and albums? I share Jirin's opinion that great art is more likely to be polarizing than broadly popular, and therefore, if the Pazz & Jop poll is identifying principally what is most popular in a given year, rather than what is, in the critics opinions, the best, why would we give extra credence to that consensus? The point of the site is clearly to point the committed listener to that which is most recommended, not that which is most popular. Therefore, the P&J is just one measure among many and deserves no extra weighting.

As to the discussion about various scoring systems used internally in the AM forums, that has no bearing on the subject at hand.
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Re: Question about Pazz & Jop weight

Post by digifuwill »

Bruce, to be clear, I'm not saying the beefheart album is better than the kravitz album. Im saying that more people think the beefheart album is great - a 10/10 - than think that the kravitz album is on that level.

I dont see the site as privileging one listener over another. Rather, it privileges one score (10/10) over others.

And general popularity is tougher to gauge anyway. A) its often not enduring - go to any used cd store and you'll find legions of usher and dave matthews albums for a buck apiece. b) it often overlooks music that is nearly universally loved but - for one reason or another - has (relatively) rarely been heard (see, e.g., big star's debut, Paul's boutique, or, more recently, janelle monae).
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Re: Question about Pazz & Jop weight

Post by Bruce »

digifuwill wrote:Bruce, to be clear, I'm not saying the beefheart album is better than the kravitz album. Im saying that more people think the beefheart album is great - a 10/10 - than think that the kravitz album is on that level.
I don't know the Kravitz album, but what I do know is that there are far more people who think that popular albums like "Bat Out of Hell" and "Rumours" are great than think that any Beefheart album is great.

BTW, "Trout Mask Replica" is among the worst things I have ever had the painful experience of hearing.
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Re: Question about Pazz & Jop weight

Post by Bruce »

digifuwill wrote:it often overlooks music that is nearly universally loved but - for one reason or another - has (relatively) rarely been heard (see, e.g., big star's debut, Paul's boutique, or, more recently, janelle monae).
I think you're deluding yourself if you think that Big Star is "universally loved." I think they stink and so do lots of "commited listeners" that i know. Even at RYM it's only the #705 album of all time. I'd hardly call that "universally loved."
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Re: Question about Pazz & Jop weight

Post by Harold »

Henrik wrote:I can imagine that some of you have rather strong opinions, so please be nice! If this turns out to a verbal fight, I will delete the thread.
Ahem.

The thread seems to have gotten just a teensy-weensy bit off topic.
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Re: Question about Pazz & Jop weight

Post by Blanco »

DocBrown wrote:I share Jirin's opinion that great art is more likely to be polarizing than broadly popular, and therefore, if the Pazz & Jop poll is identifying principally what is most popular in a given year, rather than what is, in the critics opinions, the best, why would we give extra credence to that consensus? The point of the site is clearly to point the committed listener to that which is most recommended, not that which is most popular. Therefore, the P&J is just one measure among many and deserves no extra weighting.
vote in favour!

I also think the P&J list should have the same value as any other list. In addition to the above reasons, I think it would be a problem to know how much more value give to this list. Also, perhaps more lists like this will appear in the future, so if we value all of them the same, we are avoiding future problems.
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Re: Question about Pazz & Jop weight

Post by Henrik »

Interestingly, no one has defended the higher weight of P&J. The discussion has been about how to combine ratings, and as I see it no one has defended the P&J way, which is to count the number of 10s and don't care whether others would give 9s or 1s. Bruce, you are actually farthest from away from the P&J approach, as you want 5+5 to equal 10+0. The 5+5 albums and songs are not seen on P&J at all.

Hence, I think this thread has given me enough support for me to weight P&J as every other list.
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Re: Question about Pazz & Jop weight

Post by Pierre »

Bruce wrote:BTW, "Trout Mask Replica" is among the worst things I have ever had the painful experience of hearing.
I was 17 when I was exposed to this album for the first time. I had much fun reading Matt Groening's own experience, he was 15 and thought, just like you, and me at the time, that it was one, if not the worst album I had ever listened to. For Groening, as he said, he began to like it at the "sixth or seventh try", me, I did between the eighth or tenth. And still, I probably don't rate it as it should be, because I'm French and only get half the jokes, but I still believe it now to be one of the best albums ever, and one of my favourites each time I feel like listening to it, which I'm not deterred from by the way it sounds, only because it's a double album and as such something a bit long for the windows of free time I have. Furthermore, I've since listened to the album "Free Jazz: A Collective Improvisation" by Ornette Coleman, and I think that in comparison, TMR is easy listening.


For the topic at hand, I understand the conception that lists could be weighed according to the number of critics who worked on it, it would actually make much sense (not taking into account the whole state of mind/tastes of critics and such). However, I think in this case that they should all be treated the same, without a specific exception for Pazz & Jop, something which is of course no longer possible to achieve, given the fact that the lists indexed on this website are now hundreds. So I would say I'm unfavourable to the idea.
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Re: Question about Pazz & Jop weight

Post by Jonathon »

I feel like given the scope of the Pazz and Jop, it should be given distinction. I also believe distinction should be given to lists based on readership/ internet traffic. Pazz and Jop, Rolling Stone, Pitchfork, Spin, NME, etc should outweigh smaller sources. That's probably not a popular opinion around here, but it makes no sense to me if a barely eligible source gets equal weight to Rolling Stone.

Henrik, do you already weigh sources? Am I speaking out of ignorance?
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Re: Question about Pazz & Jop weight

Post by VanillaFire1000 »

Henrik wrote:
Bruce wrote:In our polls here if someone does not like a song it has no effect on the outcome.
Yes it does in some of our polls. For the decade polls, after 15 albums and songs have been selected from each year, everyone is asked to rank everything they have heard, from best to worst. In the moderately acclaimed poll, and every other tournament game, you can only vote in match-ups where you have heard both albums/songs. Not to mention the survivor games...
Why would you be comparing the forum polls, which, while fun and interesting to see, have no effect on the actual list?

I think if you try and weigh the Pazz and Jop list based on how many people vote for each album, that kind of task would prove too difficult to imput, or incredibly time consuming to go back to all lists and weigh.
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