2013 Rock and Roll Hall of Fame: Inductees Announced

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Re: 2013 Rock and Roll Hall of Fame: Inductees Announced

Post by JR »

Mimi Carey undoubtedly has been influential as far as singing- but so has Whitney Houston, who predated her, and she hasn't even been nominated yet. So that shows that the HOF committee probably won't be rushing to nominate her when she's eligible.
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Re: 2013 Rock and Roll Hall of Fame: Inductees Announced

Post by Bruce »

JR wrote:Mimi Carey undoubtedly has been influential as far as singing- but so has Whitney Houston, who predated her, and she hasn't even been nominated yet. So that shows that the HOF committee probably won't be rushing to nominate her when she's eligible.
We'll see.
Last edited by Bruce on Tue Dec 17, 2013 4:38 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: 2013 Rock and Roll Hall of Fame: Inductees Announced

Post by Blanco »

Bruce wrote:
pauldrach wrote: Bruce, which acts since the 1990s do you see as more deserving than Nirvana?
Radiohead
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Re: 2013 Rock and Roll Hall of Fame: Inductees Announced

Post by Bruce »

JimmyJazz wrote:Bruce mentions Radiohead positively!!! :o The whole world has changed!!! :mrgreen:
Nirvana's career is just too short to be a first year inductee. They only relreased 57 songs and that includes a bunch of early demos and live tracks.
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Re: 2013 Rock and Roll Hall of Fame: Inductees Announced

Post by Blanco »

Bruce wrote:
JimmyJazz wrote:Bruce mentions Radiohead positively!!! :o The whole world has changed!!! :mrgreen:
Nirvana's career is just too short to be a first year inductee. They only relreased 57 songs and that includes a bunch of early demos and live tracks.
Really? Because here I see 221 different recordings for 104 different songs.
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Re: 2013 Rock and Roll Hall of Fame: Inductees Announced

Post by Blanco »

What do you think, Ricardo?
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Re: 2013 Rock and Roll Hall of Fame: Inductees Announced

Post by Blanco »

Yes, I think the same.
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Re: 2013 Rock and Roll Hall of Fame: Inductees Announced

Post by DDD troll account »

Bruce wrote:I also think that NWA changed the face of mainstream rock just as much or more than Nirvana, unless you are claiming that hip hop is not part of mainstream rock.
I meant to say "modern rock", referring to the radio format, which would indeed exclude N.W.A.

Either way I'd indeed argue that the arrival of grunge and the styles that emerged or surfaced in its wake in the mainstream, marked a bigger change for mainstream rock than the arrival of gangsta rap (though both were clearly massive).
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Re: 2013 Rock and Roll Hall of Fame: Inductees Announced

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Bruce wrote:
pauldrach wrote: Bruce, which acts since the 1990s do you see as more deserving than Nirvana?
Jay-Z
Kanye West
Radiohead
Eminem
R. Kelly
Beyonce
Mariah Carey
I don't see how Radiohead, R. Kelly or Beyoncé could possibly be considered to be more deserving than Nirvana and I highly doubt one can make a good case for Eminem or Carey unless you think mainstream popularity is the only thing that matters.
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Re: 2013 Rock and Roll Hall of Fame: Inductees Announced

Post by DDD troll account »

Bruce wrote:Nirvana's career is just too short to be a first year inductee. They only relreased 57 songs and that includes a bunch of early demos and live tracks.
The quantity of the output shouldn't matter that much. Acts like Nirvana or N.W.A deserve to be first-ballot hall of famers for the immense impact their music made, no mattter how much it actually is.
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Re: 2013 Rock and Roll Hall of Fame: Inductees Announced

Post by Bruce »

pauldrach wrote:
Bruce wrote:I also think that NWA changed the face of mainstream rock just as much or more than Nirvana, unless you are claiming that hip hop is not part of mainstream rock.
I meant to say "modern rock", referring to the radio format, which would indeed exclude N.W.A.
It's not all that big of a format. At least not around here.

pauldrach wrote:Either way I'd indeed argue that the arrival of grunge and the styles that emerged or surfaced in its wake in the mainstream, marked a bigger change for mainstream rock than the arrival of gangsta rap (though both were clearly massive).
Maybe outside of where these acts all come from (the USA). Inside the USA grunge and whatever else comes from it is only popular in very white areas. All the white suburban schools around here (New Jersey) are mainly into hip hop as far as I can tell. Whenever I refereed basketball games at all white schools they always warmed up to hip hop music. And certainly the inner city schools that I went to (Newark, Paterson, Jersey City, Elizabeth, etcc..) had no interest in grunge.

So why do you think Nirvana got in first time around and NWA did not?
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Re: 2013 Rock and Roll Hall of Fame: Inductees Announced

Post by Bruce »

pauldrach wrote:
Bruce wrote:
pauldrach wrote: Bruce, which acts since the 1990s do you see as more deserving than Nirvana?
Jay-Z
Kanye West
Radiohead
Eminem
R. Kelly
Beyonce
Mariah Carey
I don't see how Radiohead, R. Kelly or Beyoncé could possibly be considered to be more deserving than Nirvana and I highly doubt one can make a good case for Eminem or Carey unless you think mainstream popularity is the only thing that matters.
Radiohead is considerably more acclaimed here on the site, and it's not like Eminem and Carey don't have influence and acclaim.
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Re: 2013 Rock and Roll Hall of Fame: Inductees Announced

Post by JR »

Not to mention, Bruce, that she' and the music have not been all that acclaimed. So, a first-year-eligible induction is not likely for her.

Radiohead, on the other hand- possible. Certainly one of the most acclaimed bands of all time, but never as big commercially as Nirvana.

Of the others you mentioned, Kanye West and Eminem, I could see on a first-year-eligible ballot.
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Re: 2013 Rock and Roll Hall of Fame: Inductees Announced

Post by Live in Phoenix »

Anyway, can you believe Kiss got in? Independent of their accomplishments, I thought someone on either the HOF's side or on Kiss's side would have to start dying off first. Some guy at work who I assume was 7 years old around the year 1975 has gone to all the Kiss Kruises they run each year--they still inspire a lot of devotion out of their fans. You know what's funny, I have some Kiss book from a library sale, and all the band members review all of their albums -- for instance, Peter Criss's album gets 5 stars (from Peter Criss), diplomatically no rating one way or another from Paul Stanley, and a 0 from Gene Simmons, who gives his own album 1 star, and I don't think gave any album in their whole career 5 stars. You'd think of him as the kind of guy to call every album of theirs a freakin' classic. I wonder if Simmons will allow Criss and Ace Frehley near him to play at the HOF. I'd watch that.
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Re: 2013 Rock and Roll Hall of Fame: Inductees Announced

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Bruce wrote:Maybe outside of where these acts all come from (the USA). Inside the USA grunge and whatever else comes from it is only popular in very white areas. All the white suburban schools around here (New Jersey) are mainly into hip hop as far as I can tell. Whenever I refereed basketball games at all white schools they always warmed up to hip hop music. And certainly the inner city schools that I went to (Newark, Paterson, Jersey City, Elizabeth, etcc..) had no interest in grunge.

So why do you think Nirvana got in first time around and NWA did not?
Hip hop certainly is bigger than alternative rock. You can't credit N.W.A with bringing hip-hop into the mainstream though, they can only account for gangsta rap, which is a significant portion of hip-hop but probably not even the paramount one.

Nirvana obviously had better chances at a first-round induction because of the largely white voting body, a lot of whom probably aren't fond of inducting hip hop artists at all.
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Re: 2013 Rock and Roll Hall of Fame: Inductees Announced

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Bruce wrote:Radiohead is considerably more acclaimed here on the site, and it's not like Eminem and Carey don't have influence and acclaim.
Radiohead factor higher in the artist ranking but those rankings are kind of flawed anyway. The most acclaimed song and album by these two artists are both by Nirvana. I don't see a big difference between the two in acclaim and Nirvana are significantly more popular and influential.

Carey certainly has huge mainstream popularity, but doesn't have much acclaim at all. She may have some influence but it doesn't come close to Nirvana's. Similarly Eminem is huge in the mainstream and had a rather brief period of very significant acclaim. His influence again isn't all that big.

I do think Radiohead, Carey and Eminem should all be inducted eventually though.
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Re: 2013 Rock and Roll Hall of Fame: Inductees Announced

Post by Bruce »

pauldrach wrote:Nirvana obviously had better chances at a first-round induction because of the largely white voting body, a lot of whom probably aren't fond of inducting hip hop artists at all.
Also, the older black acts who get a vote are likely not okay with hip hop either. I don't see Diana Ross and Smokey Robinson voting for NWA either. It's also a generational thing as well as a racial thing and given that most voting acts who are already in the hall are of an older generation than the one that grew up with hip hop, some of those acts may have to wait couplle of decades as the Dave Clark 5 and other acts did.
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Re: 2013 Rock and Roll Hall of Fame: Inductees Announced

Post by JimmyJazz »

pauldrach wrote:
Bruce wrote:Radiohead is considerably more acclaimed here on the site, and it's not like Eminem and Carey don't have influence and acclaim.
Radiohead factor higher in the artist ranking but those rankings are kind of flawed anyway. The most acclaimed song and album by these two artists are both by Nirvana. I don't see a big difference between the two in acclaim and Nirvana are significantly more popular and influential.

Carey certainly has huge mainstream popularity, but doesn't have much acclaim at all. She may have some influence but it doesn't come close to Nirvana's. Similarly Eminem is huge in the mainstream and had a rather brief period of very significant acclaim. His influence again isn't all that big.

I do think Radiohead, Carey and Eminem should all be inducted eventually though.
Eh, Radiohead and Eminem, as well as, I'll admit, Kanye, are deserving. Carey, though? Hell no. I would vastly prefer Whitney Houston if they were going down the pop r&b road, personally. Just my opinion, however.
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Re: 2013 Rock and Roll Hall of Fame: Inductees Announced

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Bruce wrote:Also, the older black acts who get a vote are likely not okay with hip hop either. I don't see Diana Ross and Smokey Robinson voting for NWA either. It's also a generational thing as well as a racial thing and given that most voting acts who are already in the hall are of an older generation than the one that grew up with hip hop, some of those acts may have to wait couplle of decades as the Dave Clark 5 and other acts did.
Truth. The absence of some of the clearly worthy acts who broke through after the 1970s is pretty glaring.
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Re: 2013 Rock and Roll Hall of Fame: Inductees Announced

Post by Matski »

Do wonder what Cobain would have made of the whole thing: to gladly accept or take the John Lydon route...
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Re: 2013 Rock and Roll Hall of Fame: Inductees Announced

Post by JR »

Nirvana joins the ranks of first-year-eligible inductees. A history:

2014
Nirvana

2013
Public Enemy

2012
Guns N' Roses

2009
Run DMC

2008
Madonna

2007
R.E.M.

2005
The Pretenders
U2

2004
Prince

2003
The Clash
Elvis Costello & the Attractions
The Police

2002
Ramones
Talking Heads
Tom Petty & the Heartbreakers

1999
Bruce Springsteen

1998
The Eagles

1995
The Allman Brothers Band
Janis Joplin
Led Zeppelin
Neil Young

1994
The Band
Elton John
John Lennon

1993
Creedence Clearwater Revival
The Doors
Sly and the Family Stone
Van Morrison

1992
The Jimi Hendrix Experience
Sam & Dave

1991
The Byrds

1990
The Kinks
Simon and Garfunkel
The Who

1989
The Rolling Stones

1988
The Beach Boys
The Beatles
Bob Dylan

1986
(the first year of inductions)
Buddy Holly
Chuck Berry
Elvis Presley
The Everly Brothers
Fats Domino
James Brown
Jerry Lee Lewis
Little Richard
Ray Charles
Sam Cooke
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Re: 2013 Rock and Roll Hall of Fame: Inductees Announced

Post by Blanco »

Yeah, Cobain would have scoffed and had done something in the sex pistols-style, but still, I'm sure he would have been proud to have entered.

And well, I'm not racist, which means I do not divide into races. Neither for nor against.
But I can tell you something: perhaps not all who deserved to, have entered. But all who have entered deserve it.
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Re: 2013 Rock and Roll Hall of Fame: Inductees Announced

Post by digifuwill »

this nirvana v nwa debate is ridiculous. i listen to hiphop about twice as much as all other forms of music combined, and i think the nwa candidacy is borderline ridiculous.

I freely acknowledge that Nirvana is overrated - that Nevermind is the #3 most acclaimed album of all time is perhaps the most stunning fact about this site - but, really, so is NWA. Nirvana turned out more GREAT albums than NWA created TOTAL albums. NWA wasn't what you'd call a predominately singles-based act, either.

Straight Outta Compton's opening trio of songs are brilliant and powerful, but overall the album is probably no better than the third best hip-hop album of the year in which it was released. (after Nation of Millions and Critical Beatdown). It is arguably no better than about ten other hip-hop records released within the same 24-month period (I'd probably rank the others as follows: Paul's Boutique, 3 Feet High and Rising, Paid In Full, Criminal Minded, Strictly Business, By All Means Necessary, In Full Gear, Great Adventures of Slick Rick, Follow The Leader. If I'm being generous, Straight Outta Compton would fall in the Criminal Minded - Strictly Business range.) How many of those peer artists are being seriously considered for HOF inclusion? And unlike many of those peer artists, does NWA really have that much else going for it? Most of NWA's influence is really the influence of later work by its key members.

A tandem as talented and influential as Dre and Cube has appeared just a handful of times in pop music. Each of them should be inducted in the next few years....as individuals. As part of their inductions, their contributions to NWA should be officially recognized. But to include NWA the group as its own entity? It's ridiculous, and it's unseemly to insinuate that opposition to NWA's inclusion stems from unwillingness to recognize rap music as an important part of rock music history.
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Re: 2013 Rock and Roll Hall of Fame: Inductees Announced

Post by Bruce »

Blanco wrote: But all who have entered deserve it.
I disagree. I would not have put any of these in:

Stooges
Patti Smith
Buffalo Springfield
Dusty Springfield
Peter Gabriel
Traffic
Leonard Cohen
Tom Waits
Darlene Love
Randy Newman
Bonnie Raitt
The Small Faces/The Faces
Miles Davis
Buddy Guy
Percy Sledge
Ritchie Valens
Laura Nyro
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Re: 2013 Rock and Roll Hall of Fame: Inductees Announced

Post by Henrik »

Bruce wrote:
Blanco wrote: But all who have entered deserve it.
I disagree. I would not have put any of these in:

Stooges
Patti Smith
Buffalo Springfield
Dusty Springfield
Peter Gabriel
Traffic
Leonard Cohen
Tom Waits
Darlene Love
Randy Newman
Bonnie Raitt
The Small Faces/The Faces
Miles Davis
Buddy Guy
Percy Sledge
Ritchie Valens
Laura Nyro
I'm sure Blanco meant that all artists have made music that means a lot to many people. Hence they are deserving, even if you or I don't agree with some of the picks.
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Re: 2013 Rock and Roll Hall of Fame: Inductees Announced

Post by digifuwill »

Bruce wrote:
Blanco wrote: But all who have entered deserve it.
I disagree. I would not have put any of these in:

Buffalo Springfield
Dusty Springfield
Peter Gabriel
Traffic
Darlene Love
Percy Sledge
Ritchie Valens
Laura Nyro
I also disagree, and I tentatively agree with Bruce on the artists I've pulled from his post, regardless of the fact that I consider myself a pretty big fan of most of them. I'm not going to take the time now to skim through the entire list of HOF inductees, but it's pretty clear that committee politics and the urge to get a good tv rating have had a large undue influence on who's been selected.

Take Ritchie Valens. There's no way he would have gotten in if not for a) there was a popular movie made about him; b) Los Lobos (who have a weak case for their own selection that is nevertheless stronger than the one for Valens) had a huge hit with a cover of his signature song; and, most significantly, c) at the time of his selection, Ricky Martin and Marc Anthony were very popular (and willing to show up at the ceremony).
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Re: 2013 Rock and Roll Hall of Fame: Inductees Announced

Post by Jirin »

You don't think less mainstream alternative acts that are influential but not heavily listened to are worthy of inclusion, Bruce? If you leave out acts like the Stooges you should also be leaving out VU.

I don't think a rock and roll hall of fame should only include artists that sold millions of copies, it should also include all the people who inspired all the artists who sold millions of copies. If you leave out less mainstream acts you've got more a marketing HOF than a rock and roll HOF.

I don't see how Nirvana's membership can really be up for debate. Nevermind may appear too high on all time lists, but they were a cultural phenomenon with both mainstream and critical success.
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Re: 2013 Rock and Roll Hall of Fame: Inductees Announced

Post by Bruce »

Jirin wrote:You don't think less mainstream alternative acts that are influential but not heavily listened to are worthy of inclusion, Bruce?
Depends, I'm okay with the Ramones and some other non mainstream acts that are in.
Jirin wrote: If you leave out acts like the Stooges you should also be leaving out VU.
I'd love to, but they seem to be much more influential and have much more lasting popularoty than the Stooges.
Jirin wrote: I don't think a rock and roll hall of fame should only include artists that sold millions of copies, it should also include all the people who inspired all the artists who sold millions of copies. If you leave out less mainstream acts you've got more a marketing HOF than a rock and roll HOF.
There's plenty of non million selling acts who should be in, and are in. But there's many other genres of rock aside from alternative music. As far as I'm concerned as long as Wynonie Harris, Roy Brown, the Clovers, the Ravens and the Dominoes are not in, the HOF is lacking severely in the pioneers who started this thing in the late 1940s and early 1950s.

Did you notice that not one black R&B oriented act got in this year?

LL Cool J and NWA should be going in before Peter Gabriel, for instance.
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Re: 2013 Rock and Roll Hall of Fame: Inductees Announced

Post by Jirin »

I agree NWA deserves to be in more than Peter Gabriel, but I think the Stooges are more influential than you think, and I'd put Tom Waits in the same category as Lou Reed. The Stooges, Tom Waits, Patti Smith, Leonard Cohen and Laura Nyro absolutely deserve to be in. Having niche appeal shouldn't be punished.
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Re: 2013 Rock and Roll Hall of Fame: Inductees Announced

Post by Bruce »

Jirin wrote:I agree NWA deserves to be in more than Peter Gabriel, but I think the Stooges are more influential than you think, and I'd put Tom Waits in the same category as Lou Reed. The Stooges, Tom Waits, Patti Smith, Leonard Cohen and Laura Nyro absolutely deserve to be in. Having niche appeal shouldn't be punished.
Laura Nyro MAYBE as a contributor, but no way as a main performer.

The thing is, all the "niche" acts you want in are from white forms of rock.

Why not some black "niche" acts, like Millie Jackson, Clarence Carter, Betty Wright, the Stylistics, Gloria Gaynor, the Delfonics, or even major black superstars like Kool and the Gang. Why has Kool and the Gang never even been nominated?
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Re: 2013 Rock and Roll Hall of Fame: Inductees Announced

Post by digifuwill »

Bruce wrote:[Why has Kool and the Gang never even been nominated?
You've got me. Kool and the Gang doesn't seem to get enough respect from anyone anywhere, though.

Personally, I would have voted for every single one of the nominees, except for probably NWA (who would get in vicariously via Ice Cube and Dr. Dre as individuals), the Zombies (even though Odessey and Oracle is one of my favorite albums - they just don't have enough else going for them), and Gabriel (who has already been inducted for his best work, via Genesis). Maybe not Cat Stevens or Kiss either.

Ain't no way Kool & the Gang is getting in ahead of Chic or the Meters. Fortunately, one of them will likely get their due next year, and the other soon after. If I had to put money on which one of the ten unsuccessful finalists will be inducted in 2015, I'd put it all on the two of them (60/40 in favor of Chic).
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Re: 2013 Rock and Roll Hall of Fame: Inductees Announced

Post by Bruce »

digifuwill wrote:Ain't no way Kool & the Gang is getting in ahead of Chic or the Meters.
They belong in there long before both of those acts.

Kool and the Gang went from funk pioneers to one of the top disco acts and then was huge as an adult R&B act in the mid-1980s. They have one of the top worldwide songs of all time, and other classics (Jungle Boogie, Ladies Night, Get Down On It) and two HUGE ballad hits (Cherish, Joanna). They had big hits over a 20 year period.
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Re: 2013 Rock and Roll Hall of Fame: Inductees Announced

Post by Henry »

Bruce wrote:
digifuwill wrote:Ain't no way Kool & the Gang is getting in ahead of Chic or the Meters.
They belong in there long before both of those acts.

Kool and the Gang went from funk pioneers to one of the top disco acts and then was huge as an adult R&B act in the mid-1980s. They have one of the top worldwide songs of all time, and other classics (Jungle Boogie, Ladies Night, Get Down On It) and two HUGE ballad hits (Cherish, Joanna). They had big hits over a 20 year period.
As the other oldster in the forum, I concur with you on this one Bruce.
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Re: 2013 Rock and Roll Hall of Fame: Inductees Announced

Post by JR »

I like Kool & the Gang, but, again, commercial success isn't a main factor for induction potential. heck, Olivia Newton-John and Cher are among my favorite females, and have had a heckuva lot of success, but I understand why they're not in.
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Re: 2013 Rock and Roll Hall of Fame: Inductees Announced

Post by Bruce »

JR wrote:I like Kool & the Gang, but, again, commercial success isn't a main factor for induction potential. heck, Olivia Newton-John and Cher are among my favorite females, and have had a heckuva lot of success, but I understand why they're not in.
So explain to me why Dusty Springfield is in but Cher is not.
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Re: 2013 Rock and Roll Hall of Fame: Inductees Announced

Post by JimmyJazz »

One thing I would like to know, Bruce, is this: why are you so obsessed with categorizing between "white acts" and "black acts"? I see plenty of regular, non-white users of this forum who greatly love so many of the "skinny white guys with guitars" bands you despise. We have people who are Latino (Blanco, HRS), Arabic (Nassim), Native American (DocBrown), and I'm pretty sure we have many users who on this forum are, in fact, black themselves (anybody want to elaborate on this, just so Bruce can have his own bizarre logic about music, and apparently, race, collapse?).

Taking this all in, I do not know why you are so obstinate about black acts not being represented, when, if you look clearly at the Hall's membership list, it is pretty evenly balanced to me. The acts you mention are either way too obscure or too popular and mainstream to ever really have a chance to be in the Hall. I, along with many other people on this forum, probably can't wait for the day that the Pixies, the Smiths, Sonic Youth, Kate Bush, or Roxy Music will be inducted, with the semi-conscious knowledge that they probably don't stand a chance of being inducted ever. The same goes for the old doo wop and r&b acts you praise to death. The thing is, that's just how the Hall, and life in general, works. It reminds me of that one song by the Rolling Stones, which my mother always used as a life lesson to me. I do believe its that one with the reference to Jimi Hendrix, who we all know is one your FAVORITE acts, in it. :mrgreen:
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Re: 2013 Rock and Roll Hall of Fame: Inductees Announced

Post by Bruce »

JimmyJazz wrote:One thing I would like to know, Bruce, is this: why are you so obsessed with categorizing between "white acts" and "black acts"?
Somebody has to speak up for the inequities that exist. Ever since the 60s so called "rock" critics and "rock" radio stations have been putting forth the subtle message that "rock" is a genre made up almost exclusively by white musicians. There are no "classic rock" stations that I know of who play classic rock songs by Wilson Pickett, the Temptations, Kool and the Gang, James Brown, Jr. Walker and the All-Stars, Martha and the Vandellas, Jerry Butler, etc....all they play are white acts and Hendrix, who was never popular in the black community.

Perfect example - this years Rock & Roll HOF inductees. No black acts who do black music at all. The only two blacks who were inducted this year are two guys from the E Street Band. Blacks started rock and roll, but somewhere along the line whites grabbed it as their own and decided that black music after the 50s was not part of rock anymore.
JimmyJazz wrote: I see plenty of regular, non-white users of this forum who greatly love so many of the "skinny white guys with guitars" bands you despise. We have people who are Latino (Blanco, HRS), Arabic (Nassim), Native American (DocBrown), and I'm pretty sure we have many users who on this forum are, in fact, black themselves
What makes you sure? I'd be surprised if there were ANY Black Americans who are regulars here.

Anybody?
JimmyJazz wrote: Taking this all in, I do not know why you are so obstinate about black acts not being represented, when, if you look clearly at the Hall's membership list, it is pretty evenly balanced to me.
It's not even near balanced for acts that started after the 50s. Yes, they recognized the early black rock and rollers like Fats Domino, Little Richard and Chuck Berry, and many 60s acts, but after that it's kind of hard to understand why the Small faces are hall of famers but Kool and the Gang is not, or why Laura Nyro and Traffic are hall of famers but LL Cool J and Joe Tex are not, or why Peter Gabriel is a hall of famer but the Stylistics are not. Or why Patti Smith is a hall of famer but Dionne Warwick is not.
JimmyJazz wrote:The acts you mention are either way too obscure or too popular and mainstream to ever really have a chance to be in the Hall.
So you're saying it's bad to be too popular? Why are the Beatles and Elvis in the hall, they are the two most popular rock acts ever? And there's nobody that I am advocating for who is at all obscure.
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Re: 2013 Rock and Roll Hall of Fame: Inductees Announced

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Can you please cite actual statistics to prove that no rock stations play some black acts, because the most popular "classic rock" station in Toronto, the city I was born in, often plays soul, r&b, and even reggae. Also, how do you know that Jimi Hendrix is not popular with the black community. My cousin, who is half-black, as well as his black father, my uncle, are huge fans of Hendrix. Actually, could you please cite statistics for all of the claims you make about "everyone listens to this act", and "nobody listens to this act"? Because, most of the time, man, your claims are hollow and based around the Billboard charts, which don't account for radio airplay, for example.

...Finally, WHY are you so sure that no black Americans are on this forum? Why would you be "surprised"? Falling on rather, how we say, old-fashioned views of what the "dark people", as my great grandmother apparently said, much to the embarrassment of her children and grand children, do and don't do?
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Re: 2013 Rock and Roll Hall of Fame: Inductees Announced

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JimmyJazz wrote:Can you please cite actual statistics to prove that no rock stations play some black acts, because the most popular "classic rock" station in Toronto, the city I was born in, often plays soul, r&b, and even reggae.
I can only go by the several rock stations that I have heard in the NY/NJ area where they play no black acts other than Hendrix, and many others around the country that I have seen all time song lists from.
JimmyJazz wrote: Also, how do you know that Jimi Hendrix is not popular with the black community.
He never had a record on the black charts in his career, and none of the black stations that I know of have ever played his music.
JimmyJazz wrote: My cousin, who is half-black, as well as his black father, my uncle, are huge fans of Hendrix.
There are always exceptions, but I managed a store in a black area for 20 years and never once sold a Hendrix record to a black person.
JimmyJazz wrote: Actually, could you please cite statistics for all of the claims you make about "everyone listens to this act", and "nobody listens to this act"? Because, most of the time, man, your claims are hollow and based around the Billboard charts, which don't account for radio airplay, for example.
The Billboard singles charts all through the 50s, 60s, 70s and 80s were based MORE on radio play than they were on sales. I don't know about nowadays.
JimmyJazz wrote: Finally, WHY are you so sure that no black Americans are on this forum? Why would you be "surprised"? Falling on rather, how we say, old-fashioned views of what the "dark people", as my great grandmother apparently said, much to the embarrassment of her children and grand children, do and don't do?
I could be wrong, let's see if any regulars respond and say that they are black Americans.
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Re: 2013 Rock and Roll Hall of Fame: Inductees Announced

Post by Bruce »

Here's a live show by Hendrix in an area that has lots of black people, Miami. They scan the crowd at the end of the song, do you see any blacks in the crowd?
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Re: 2013 Rock and Roll Hall of Fame: Inductees Announced

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Well, I made my case, Bruce. Like most people on this forum, I will simply not respond to you anymore. You are an extraordinarily stubborn man who is set in his ways, which are rooted in, from my perspective, a almost-twilight zone world. Nothing I, or anything anyone can say, will seem to change you or make you see things in an even slightly different perspective. You base everything on your age bracket, your biases, your tiny region of the whole world, etc. I will just let you know one last thing: my uncle is, in fact, a Rastafarian, and passionately interested in black causes around the world. I'm talking Nelson Mandela, MLK, Malcolm X, Pan-Africanism, the whole bit. He was very passionate about the issue of apartheid South Africa and the people's struggles as a young man, as well. If that is not being "credibly black", and that feels so freakin stupid having to write, then I really, quite honestly don't know what the hell is. Furthermore, why is it that Wikipedia states that several hip-hop acts were influenced by Hendrix? I thought I remember a quote by Chuck D. To the effect that he wanted to do for hip-hop what Hendrix did for rock.

Considering you used the most offensive and outrageous language in your final post as SavoyBG, including personally insulting the very man who created this whole website, I am very surprised that you were allowed back on this forum in the first place and why Henrik simply hasn't banned you.

Goodbye, sir.
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Re: 2013 Rock and Roll Hall of Fame: Inductees Announced

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JimmyJazz wrote:Furthermore, why is it that Wikipedia states that several hip-hop acts were influenced by Hendrix?
I don't know, but I don't see Wikipedia as any kind of authority on anything. Lots of hip hop records sampled the break from "Sweat Pea" by Tommy Roe and also "Buzz Saw" by the Turtles. Do you think that means that blacks liked Tommy Roe's music and the Turtles music?

There are lots of film clips of Hendrix live on youtube. If you find one where there are lots of black people in the audience, let me know.

I see you are in Arizona which is only about 4% black. I'm in NJ which is 14% black. And I live in Essex County which is 43% white and 41% black.

Here'a a picture of me and my ex-wife:

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Re: 2013 Rock and Roll Hall of Fame: Inductees Announced

Post by digifuwill »

Bruce wrote:
JimmyJazz wrote:Can you please cite actual statistics to prove that no rock stations play some black acts, because the most popular "classic rock" station in Toronto, the city I was born in, often plays soul, r&b, and even reggae.
I can only go by the several rock stations that I have heard in the NY/NJ area where they play no black acts other than Hendrix, and many others around the country that I have seen all time song lists from.
Bruce is dead on here. Maybe it's different on the West Coast, or in New Orleans, but everywhere else in the USA it's virtually impossible to find a station that plays both Stevie Wonder and Pink Floyd, or both the Rolling Stones and Sly & The Family Stone. Everyone i've met loves all 4. but apparently every FM radio station thinks that no one does. There are even a large number of stations that play "all your favorites from the 80s" but NEVER play a single track by Janet Jackson or Whitney Houston. This is the biggest reason why I almost never listen to radio anymore, except when i'm with friends/family (at which point I annoy them in my endless, fruitless quest to find a station that doesn't segregate). Personally, I like to hear Miles Davis mixed in with the Clovers mixed in with Clipse mixed in with Sonic Youth etc. There's nothing even close to that available (except on my Ipod). That's unfortunate. But the unwillingness of most "classic rock" stations to play black artists other than Jimi (and, if they're really progressive, occasional Bob Marley) is just really, really depressing and evil. For what it's worth, old school R&B stations are typically a little bit better about playing stuff from white artists. No Beatles or anything, but Hall & Oates or even the Beegees might find their way in there.

Radio stations have long been known to go with narrower and narrower formats (for example, just listen to all the rap songs from 1987-1992 ranting about black-owned radio stations' unwillingness to diversify from their smooth soul-only "straight R&B"). But the continuing history of American stations' segregation of artists based on skin color, even when those artists play virtually the exact same type of music, is especially unfortunate.
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Re: 2013 Rock and Roll Hall of Fame: Inductees Announced

Post by Bruce »

digifuwill wrote:
Bruce wrote:
JimmyJazz wrote:Can you please cite actual statistics to prove that no rock stations play some black acts, because the most popular "classic rock" station in Toronto, the city I was born in, often plays soul, r&b, and even reggae.
I can only go by the several rock stations that I have heard in the NY/NJ area where they play no black acts other than Hendrix, and many others around the country that I have seen all time song lists from.
Bruce is dead on here. Maybe it's different on the West Coast, or in New Orleans, but everywhere else in the USA it's virtually impossible to find a station that plays both Stevie Wonder and Pink Floyd, or both the Rolling Stones and Sly & The Family Stone. Everyone i've met loves all 4. but apparently every FM radio station thinks that no one does. There are even a large number of stations that play "all your favorites from the 80s" but NEVER play a single track by Janet Jackson or Whitney Houston. This is the biggest reason why I almost never listen to radio anymore, except when i'm with friends/family (at which point I annoy them in my endless, fruitless quest to find a station that doesn't segregate). Personally, I like to hear Miles Davis mixed in with the Clovers mixed in with Clipse mixed in with Sonic Youth etc. There's nothing even close to that available (except on my Ipod). That's unfortunate. But the unwillingness of most "classic rock" stations to play black artists other than Jimi (and, if they're really progressive, occasional Bob Marley) is just really, really depressing and evil. For what it's worth, old school R&B stations are typically a little bit better about playing stuff from white artists. No Beatles or anything, but Hall & Oates or even the Beegees might find their way in there.

Radio stations have long been known to go with narrower and narrower formats (for example, just listen to all the rap songs from 1987-1992 ranting about black-owned radio stations' unwillingness to diversify from their smooth soul-only "straight R&B"). But the continuing history of American stations' segregation of artists based on skin color, even when those artists play virtually the exact same type of music, is especially unfortunate.
Thanks, Dig. That's the same experience I have had. "Classic Rock" is code for "White Guitar oriented rock and roll" (and Hendrix).

So far nobody in the forum has said that they are black Americans.
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Re: 2013 Rock and Roll Hall of Fame: Inductees Announced

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Dusty in Memphis, for one, is a very highly regarded album- none of Cher's albums have been all that well regarded, critically. Bruce, is that sufficient enough for ya? :)

A glance at this site gives some indication on the status of many acts.
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Re: 2013 Rock and Roll Hall of Fame: Inductees Announced

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JR wrote:Dusty in Memphis, for one, is a very highly regarded album- none of Cher's albums have been all that well regarded, critically. Bruce, is that sufficient enough for ya? :)
No, not at all.

I think that popularity with the general public is MUCH MORE important towards an act's legacy than is acclaim from a few hundred music journalists. Besides Cher has much more of other types of acclaim that Dusty has, like Golden Globes, an Emmy, an Oscar and a Grammy. She is the only artist to date to have a number-one single on a Billboard chart in each of the past six decades.

"Dusty In Memphis" barely cracked the top 100 on Billboard (#99) and she's never even had a gold album. Cher has had at least 9 gold albums with a couple going platinum or better.

I don't remember Dusty Springfield being a headliner in Las Vegas for decades like Cher either.
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Re: 2013 Rock and Roll Hall of Fame: Inductees Announced

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Yeah, and she was the first to use autotune on a commercial song. It takes courage to do that.
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Re: 2013 Rock and Roll Hall of Fame: Inductees Announced

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JR wrote:Dusty in Memphis, for one, is a very highly regarded album- none of Cher's albums have been all that well regarded, critically. Bruce, is that sufficient enough for ya? :)

A glance at this site gives some indication on the status of many acts.
No use in using that argument JR. The man despises this site, he's merely a classic troll. I would suggest that you don't respond to him either, as I and apparently many others here have made a vow to do.
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Re: 2013 Rock and Roll Hall of Fame: Inductees Announced

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Also, I would like to apologize anyone (except Bruce), if my inquiry of if any of the users on this forum are black came off as being offensive. It was a very stupid question to ask, and I was being no better than him when he goes on about "white music" and "black music".
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Re: 2013 Rock and Roll Hall of Fame: Inductees Announced

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JimmyJazz wrote:Also, I would like to apologize anyone (except Bruce), if my inquiry of if any of the users on this forum are black came off as being offensive. It was a very stupid question to ask, and I was being no better than him when he goes on about "white music" and "black music".
Do not worry, man. Let's just keep pressing play to the good music. :music-listening:
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