Search found 847 matches

by Gillingham
Fri Dec 08, 2017 12:04 pm
Forum: Music, music, music...
Topic: When did rock die?
Replies: 31
Views: 599

Re: When did rock die?

Nice graphs!

StevieFan13 wrote:What a plummet for jazz though. Unsurprisingly, I suppose.

Indeed.
Good to see it slowly climb up in the 10s though. It's actually doing better than any time since the 70s.
by Gillingham
Thu Dec 07, 2017 9:05 pm
Forum: Films, movies, motion pictures...
Topic: Films of the 1970s: 1970 (2018 edition)
Replies: 15
Views: 256

Re: Films of the 1970s: 1970 (2018 edition)

According to RYM, these are all the 1970 films I've seen (didn't doublecheck release dates on IMDb): Very Good 1. Le cercle rouge [The Red Circle] - Jean-Pierre Melville 2. The Aristocats - Wolfgang Reitherman 3. Die Herren mit der weißen Weste - Wolfgang Staudte 4. The Private Life of Sherlock Hol...
by Gillingham
Thu Dec 07, 2017 9:02 pm
Forum: Films, movies, motion pictures...
Topic: Films of the 1970s: 1970 (2018 edition)
Replies: 15
Views: 256

Re: Films of the 1970s: 1970 (2018 edition)

1. Il Conformista (Bernardo Bertolucci) 2. Le Genou de Claire (Eric Rohmer) 3. MASH (Robert Altman) 4. Five Easy Peaces (Bob Rafelson) 5. Le Cercle Rouge (Jean-Pierre Melville) 6. Patton (Franklin J. Schaffner) 7. Zabriskie Point (Michelangelo Antonioni) 8. Gimme Shelter (Albert Maysles, David Maysl...
by Gillingham
Thu Dec 07, 2017 8:27 pm
Forum: Music, music, music...
Topic: Your 2017 Wrapped
Replies: 22
Views: 463

Re: Your 2017 Wrapped

Minutes listened: 25.005
Songs: 3162
Artists: 415

Top Artists:
Radiohead
Run the Jewels
The National
Grizzly Bear
Lana del Rey

Still listen to 'physical' music as well, so that doesn't show up of course.
by Gillingham
Thu Dec 07, 2017 8:12 pm
Forum: Music, music, music...
Topic: When did rock die?
Replies: 31
Views: 599

Re: When did rock die?

Alternative Rock is a sub-genre of Rock as well, so why not include that one anyway?

Still, interesting stuff Jonatan!
by Gillingham
Wed Nov 29, 2017 9:09 pm
Forum: EOY 2017
Topic: EOY 2017 - Mojo Magazine (UK)
Replies: 13
Views: 1369

Re: EOY 2017 - Mojo Magazine (UK)

(I am expecting Run the Jewels 3 to be a major presence - I hope I'm not wrong.) Was expecting for it to turn up as well, slightly surprised and disappointed it hasn't so far. So far we've only seen lists from the UK (well, and a prog only US list), where rap just isn't all that popular compared to...
by Gillingham
Sun Nov 26, 2017 9:55 pm
Forum: EOY 2017
Topic: EOY 2017 - Mojo Magazine (UK)
Replies: 13
Views: 1369

Re: EOY 2017 - Mojo Magazine (UK)

Harold wrote:
Bruno wrote:
04: A Tribe Called Quest - We Got It From Here... Thank You 4 Your Service

:?

(I am expecting Run the Jewels 3 to be a major presence - I hope I'm not wrong.)


Was expecting for it to turn up as well, slightly surprised and disappointed it hasn't so far.
by Gillingham
Sun Nov 26, 2017 9:54 pm
Forum: EOY 2017
Topic: Notes on EOY spreadsheets
Replies: 3
Views: 465

Re: Notes on EOY spreadsheets

Thanks indeed Harold, definitely appreciated!
by Gillingham
Thu Oct 26, 2017 6:49 pm
Forum: Music, music, music...
Topic: Album of the Week: Nomination Thread
Replies: 35
Views: 1118

Re: Group listening project idea: Album of the Week?

Good idea Moonbeam, should be fun!
Long live variety.
by Gillingham
Wed Oct 25, 2017 9:25 pm
Forum: Music, music, music...
Topic: Women in Music All-Time Lists - Planning (submissions begin November 1)
Replies: 76
Views: 2612

Re: Women in Music All-Time Lists - Planning (submissions begin November 1)

Or Finally We Are No One by múm? . Early múm is pretty much 2 guys and 2 ladies with equal contribution so they should count. I'm more hesitating for albums by Low (I'd say yes), Yo La Tengo (probably not) and Los Campesinos (yes up to 2012?) I'm having difficulty deciding about Low as well. It's p...
by Gillingham
Sun Oct 22, 2017 7:10 pm
Forum: Music, music, music...
Topic: AMF Favorite Albums of All-Time -- RESULTS
Replies: 758
Views: 52456

Re: AMF Favorite Albums of All-Time -- RESULTS

Great work notbrianeno! Thanks a lot for all of it. It took some time, but I agree with Henrik that ( at least in a big three yearly poll like this) the slow roll-out helped quite a bit with attracting attention and discussion and giving the rollout the attention it deserves. Impressive sweep by OK ...
by Gillingham
Sat Oct 21, 2017 9:01 am
Forum: Music, music, music...
Topic: AMF Favorite Albums of All-Time -- RESULTS
Replies: 758
Views: 52456

Re: AMF Favorite Albums of All-Time -- RESULTS

That #15 to #11 was a great batch. And the Kid A review joke was spot on! Ha yes that Pitchfork Kid A review is pretty great. I'm also happy about the last batch, just 3 of my voted albums are in top 30, they also made top 13 :D. Beatlemania is def. out of control but I've come to expect that here. ...
by Gillingham
Wed Oct 18, 2017 4:34 pm
Forum: Music, music, music...
Topic: AMF Favorite Albums of All-Time -- RESULTS
Replies: 758
Views: 52456

Re: AMF Favorite Albums of All-Time -- RESULTS

Listyguy wrote:
Live in Phoenix wrote:Oh my, what on earth happened to Dylan. I thought for a moment that we had suddenly reached the top 10 countdown...

My thoughts exactly...what an unfortunate turn of events this poll has been for Dylan...

Ouch indeed! And that in the year after his win of the Nobel Prize for Literature.
by Gillingham
Mon Oct 16, 2017 4:29 pm
Forum: Music, music, music...
Topic: AMF Favorite Albums of All-Time -- RESULTS
Replies: 758
Views: 52456

Re: AMF Favorite Albums of All-Time -- RESULTS

Could those speaking about albums that still haven't showed up yet please post in the prediction thread (which I ignore)? I try to really not think about what is still in the bag and what not, that way it's much more fun (for me anyway). Of course there are some obvious ones, but still.

Thanks!
by Gillingham
Fri Oct 13, 2017 3:43 pm
Forum: General Discussion
Topic: AMF Favorite Books Poll: THE RESULTS
Replies: 86
Views: 3842

Re: AMF Favorite Books Poll: THE RESULTS

Thanks Listyguy
by Gillingham
Wed Oct 11, 2017 6:21 pm
Forum: Music, music, music...
Topic: Moderately Acclaimed Albums 8 - Semi-Finals!
Replies: 26
Views: 855

Re: Moderately Acclaimed Albums 8 - Semi-Finals!

The Beatles | Help!
Nick Cave & The Bad Seeds | No More Shall We Part
by Gillingham
Wed Oct 11, 2017 6:19 pm
Forum: Music, music, music...
Topic: AMF Favorite Albums of All-Time -- RESULTS
Replies: 758
Views: 52456

Re: AMF Favorite Albums of All-Time -- RESULTS

Also, I'm impressed with how close Good Kid, m.A.A.d. City came to beating To Pimp a Butterfly! They finished a lot closer together than I think a lot of us would have thought. As for the two Kendrick Lamar albums, I vastly prefer GKmC. I've yet to understand the hype of TPaB, but I'd love to hear ...
by Gillingham
Mon Oct 09, 2017 6:20 pm
Forum: General Discussion
Topic: AMF Favorite Books Poll: THE RESULTS
Replies: 86
Views: 3842

Re: AMF Favorite Books Poll: THE RESULTS

Only four, of which: 1. I wasn't impressed by 1984. Yes, it's very influential indeed, but I didn't like the style (which is very important for me) and knew all about it's legacy which probably didn't help it either. Read it quite a long time ago, but it isn't a book in which you can 'miss' a lot as...
by Gillingham
Sun Oct 08, 2017 10:55 am
Forum: General Discussion
Topic: AMF Favorite Books Poll: THE RESULTS
Replies: 86
Views: 3842

Re: AMF Favorite Books Poll: THE RESULTS

Thank a lot Listyguy, it's appreciated. Great roll-out, enjoyed the ride. Hope this will start a tradition of doing novel polls once every couple of years.

Not so enamoured of the results, but a lot of others obviously are, so that's alright.
by Gillingham
Sun Sep 24, 2017 8:56 pm
Forum: General Discussion
Topic: AMF Favorite Books Poll: THE RESULTS
Replies: 86
Views: 3842

Re: AMF Favorite Books Poll: THE RESULTS

Then again, I assume most participants in these all-time greatest polls (albums, novels, films etc.) have already heard/read/seen quite some works before the poll starts and only get to know a couple of more works (and do some re-lostening/reading/watching) to make the lists. For me, when it comes t...
by Gillingham
Wed Sep 20, 2017 3:00 pm
Forum: Music, music, music...
Topic: AMF Weekly Chart 17.33
Replies: 7
Views: 371

Re: AMF Weekly Chart 17.33

spiritualized wrote:I'll throw in one, albeit a bit late

Godspeed You! Black Emperor - Anthem for No State, Pt. III

Supported!
by Gillingham
Sat Sep 16, 2017 9:31 am
Forum: Music, music, music...
Topic: AMF Favorite Albums of All-Time -- RESULTS
Replies: 758
Views: 52456

Re: AMF Favorite Albums of All-Time -- RESULTS

I agree with Stevie and Godot about the rollout.
Fun to follow it anyway.
by Gillingham
Sat Sep 16, 2017 9:29 am
Forum: Music, music, music...
Topic: AMF Favorite Albums of All-Time -- RESULTS
Replies: 758
Views: 52456

Re: AMF Favorite Albums of All-Time -- RESULTS

Jackson wrote:I voted for In a Silent Way but if the poll was held today I would've placed it much higher. Beautiful music, like nothing else.

I didn't include it then, but would if I'd compile a list now.
by Gillingham
Fri Sep 15, 2017 9:06 am
Forum: Music, music, music...
Topic: AMF Favorite Albums of All-Time -- RESULTS
Replies: 758
Views: 52456

Re: AMF Favorite Albums of All-Time -- RESULTS

Great presentation so far notbrianeno (and those whole helped him). Enjoying the ride, thanks.

Agree with what other have said before, the diversity of this list is really nice. And good to see #501-#1000 got some well deserved attention too.
by Gillingham
Wed Sep 13, 2017 4:39 pm
Forum: Music, music, music...
Topic: Moderately Acclaimed Albums 8 - Round 3.4
Replies: 22
Views: 888

Re: Moderately Acclaimed Albums 8 - Round 3.4

1. Joanna Newsom - Have One On Me vs. The Beatles - Help!
2. Lana Del Rey - Born to Die vs. Tom Waits - Small Change
3. Jackson C. Frank - Jackson C. Frank vs. Ennio Morricone - Once Upon a Time in the West
4. Astor Piazzolla - LIbertango vs. Barbara - Barbara chante Barbara
by Gillingham
Sat Aug 12, 2017 8:46 pm
Forum: Music, music, music...
Topic: Music of R&B: Round 1, Week 1
Replies: 39
Views: 2016

Re: Music of R&B: Round 1, Week 1

Albums Marvin Gaye - What's Going On vs. Sly and the Family Stone - There's a Riot Going On Prince - Purple Rain vs. Stevie Wonder - Songs in the Key of Life Prince - Sign 'O' the Times vs. Stevie Wonder - Innervisions Michael Jackson - Thriller vs. James Brown - Live' at the Apollo Gnarls Barkley -...
by Gillingham
Tue Aug 01, 2017 9:59 am
Forum: Films, movies, motion pictures...
Topic: Films of the 1980s: 1989 (2017 edition)
Replies: 19
Views: 1160

Re: Films of the 1980s: 1989 (2017 edition)

1. Jésus de Montréal (Denys Arcand) 2. Crimes and Misdemeanors (Woody Allen) 3. Do the Right Thing (Spike Lee) 4. My Left Foot: The Story of Christy Brown (Jim Sheridan) 5. Átame! (Pedro Almodóvar) 6. Casualties of War (Brian de Palma) 7. Dekalog, Jeden (Krzysztof Kieslowski) 8. Dead Poets Society (...
by Gillingham
Mon Jul 17, 2017 7:21 pm
Forum: Films, movies, motion pictures...
Topic: Films of the 1980s: 1988 (2017 edition)
Replies: 21
Views: 1309

Re: Films of the 1980s: 1988 (2017 edition)

1. Kárhozat/Damnation (Béla Tarr) 2. The Last Temptation of Christ (Martine Scorsese) 3. Hotaru no Haka/Grave of the Fireflies (Isao Takahata) 4. Nuevo Cinema Paradiso (Giuseppe Tornatore) 5. Akira (Katsuhiro Ôtomo) 6. Dead Ringers (David Cronenberg) 7. The Thin Blue Line (Errol Morris) 8. Spoorloos...
by Gillingham
Mon Jul 17, 2017 6:41 pm
Forum: Films, movies, motion pictures...
Topic: Films of the 1980s: 1986 (2017 edition)
Replies: 21
Views: 1481

Re: Films of the 1980s: 1986 (2017 edition)

Petri, could you maybe also add the rankings of last time if it's not too much work? Always interesting.
Thanks a lot anyway.
by Gillingham
Fri Jul 07, 2017 2:03 pm
Forum: Music, music, music...
Topic: Music of Hip Hop: Song Finals
Replies: 35
Views: 1917

Re: Music of Hip Hop: Song Finals

Paper planes
by Gillingham
Tue Jul 04, 2017 7:35 pm
Forum: Films, movies, motion pictures...
Topic: Films of the 1980s: 1987 (2017 edition)
Replies: 16
Views: 1118

Re: Films of the 1980s: 1987 (2017 edition)

1. Der Himmel über Berlin (Wim Wenders) 2. Full Metal Jacket (Stanley Kubrick) 3. Au Revoir les Enfants (Louis Malle) 4. Empire of the Sun (Steven Spielberg) 5. Hong Gao Liang/Red Sorghum (Yimou Zhang) 6. Raising Arizona (Joel & Ethan Coen 7. The Untouchables (Brian de Palma) 8. Escape from Sobi...
by Gillingham
Fri Jun 30, 2017 1:12 pm
Forum: General Discussion
Topic: AMF Favorite Books Poll: Voting Thread
Replies: 65
Views: 6053

Re: AMF Favorite Books Poll: Voting Thread

1. Cormac McCarthy - Blood Meridian or the Evening Redness in the West 2. William Faulkner - As I Lay Dying 3. J.M. Coetzee - Disgrace 4. Mark Twain - Adventures of Huckleberry Finn 5. Cormac McCarthy - The Road 6. Stanislaw Lem - Fiasko 7. Philip Roth - Sabbath's Theater 8. John Williams - Butcher'...
by Gillingham
Fri Jun 30, 2017 12:46 pm
Forum: Music, music, music...
Topic: Music of Hip Hop: Album Finals
Replies: 23
Views: 1483

Re: Music of Hip Hop: Album Finals

Albums
Public Enemy - It Takes a Nation of Millions to Hold Us Back vs. Kendrick Lamar - Good Kid, M.A.A.D. City

Songs
M.I.A. - Paper Planes vs. Grandmaster Flash and the Furious Five - The Message
The Roots - The Seed (2.0) vs. Notorious B.I.G. - Juicy
by Gillingham
Mon Jun 26, 2017 12:45 pm
Forum: General Discussion
Topic: Do you agree that these are the most acclaimed works of their respective mediums?
Replies: 17
Views: 1159

Re: Do you agree that these are the most acclaimed works of their respective mediums?

Film: The Godfather and The Godfather Part II, Shawshank Redemption, Casablanca You included both The Shawshank Redemption and Casablanca over Vertigo , 2001: A Space Odyssey and Tokyo Story ? Gotta say, I'm shaking my head over here. Well I included those movies because those films are at or near ...
by Gillingham
Wed Jun 21, 2017 5:09 pm
Forum: Music, music, music...
Topic: AMF Favorite Albums of All-Time -- List Thread
Replies: 361
Views: 38413

Re: AMF Favorite Albums of All-Time -- List Thread

You've got The Bends at 54 and 75. :)
by Gillingham
Mon Jun 19, 2017 2:43 pm
Forum: Films, movies, motion pictures...
Topic: Films of the 1980s: 1986 (2017 edition)
Replies: 21
Views: 1481

Re: Films of the 1980s: 1986 (2017 edition)

1. Blue Velvet (David Lynch) 2. Le Déclin de l'Empire Américain (Denys Arcand) 3. Down by Law (Jim Jarmusch) 4. Offret (Andrei Tarkovsky) 5. Hannah and her Sisters (Woody Allen) 6. The Fly (David Cronenberg) 7. Manhunter (Michael Mann) 8. Platoon (Oliver Stone) 9. Aliens (David Cameron) 10. The Miss...
by Gillingham
Sun Jun 11, 2017 5:32 pm
Forum: Films, movies, motion pictures...
Topic: Films of the 1980s: 1985 (2017 edition)
Replies: 17
Views: 1384

Re: Films of the 1980s: 1985 (2017 edition)

1. Idi i Smotri/Come and See (Elem Klimov) 2. La Historia Oficial (Luis Puenzo) 3. Ran (Akira Kurosawa) 4. Brazil (Terry Gilliam) 5. Qing mei zhu ma/Taipei Story (Edward Yang) 15 points 6. The Breakfast Club (John Hughes) 8 points 7. A Room with a View (James Ivory) 6 points 8. Back to the Future (R...
by Gillingham
Fri May 19, 2017 11:06 am
Forum: Films, movies, motion pictures...
Topic: Films of the 1980s: 1984 (2017 edition)
Replies: 16
Views: 1547

Re: Films of the 1980s: 1984 (2017 edition)

1. Once upon a Time in America (Sergio Leone) 2. Kaos (Paolo & Vittorio Taviani) 3. Threads (Mick Jackson) 4. The Killing Fields (Roland Joffé) 5. Paris, Texas (Wim Wenders) 6. 2010 (Peter Hyams) 7. Blood Simple (Joel & Ethan Coen) 8. The Times of Harvey Milk (Rob Epstein) 9. The Terminator ...
by Gillingham
Wed May 17, 2017 8:26 pm
Forum: Music, music, music...
Topic: New Releases Week of 5/12/2017
Replies: 14
Views: 1061

Re: New Releases Week of 5/12/2017

Just wanted to chip in to say this is pretty useful. Thanks BleuPanda!
by Gillingham
Mon May 15, 2017 9:26 pm
Forum: Films, movies, motion pictures...
Topic: TSPDT Series, #99
Replies: 10
Views: 1196

Re: TSPDT Series, #99

but it's definitely one of the less accessible of the top 100. Only if you have problems with long or silent films. Otherwise it's the opposite, scoring points through a lot of sensational scenes and dime-store philosophy that a kid could understand. Looking over the rest of the top 100 I find most...
by Gillingham
Sat May 06, 2017 1:46 pm
Forum: Films, movies, motion pictures...
Topic: Films of the 1980s: 1983 (2017 edition)
Replies: 20
Views: 1849

Re: Films of the 1980s: 1983 (2017 edition)

1. Nostalghia (Andrei Tarkovsky) 2. Zelig (Woody Allen) 3. Videodrome (David Cronenberg) 4. Star Wars: Return of the Jedi (Richard Marquand) 5. L'Argent (Robert Bresson) 6. Rikos ja Rangaistus/Crime and Punishment (Aki Kaurismäki) 7. Sans Soleil (Chris Marker) 8. Scarface (Brian de Palma) 9. E la Na...
by Gillingham
Fri Apr 21, 2017 1:18 pm
Forum: Films, movies, motion pictures...
Topic: Films of the 1980s: 1982 (2017 edition)
Replies: 24
Views: 2323

Re: Films of the 1980s: 1982 (2017 edition)

1. Blade Runner (Ridley Scott) 2. Fanny och Alexander (Ingmar Bergman) 3. La Notte di San Lorenzo (Paolo & Vitorio Taviani) 4. The Thing (John Carpenter) 5. Fitzcarraldo (Werner Herzog) 6. The Verdict (Sydney Lumet) 7. Koyaanisqatsi (Godfrey Reggio) 8. A Midsummer Night's Sex Comedy (Woody Allen...
by Gillingham
Sun Apr 02, 2017 8:36 pm
Forum: Films, movies, motion pictures...
Topic: Films of the 1980s: 1981 (2017 edition)
Replies: 18
Views: 1962

Re: Films of the 1980s: 1981 (2017 edition)

1. Das Boot (Wolfgang Petersen) 2. Garde à Vue (Claude Miller) 3. Gallipoli (Peter Weir) 4. Scanners (David Cronenberg) 5. Christiane F. - Wir Kinder vom Bahnhof Zoo (Uli Edel) 6. Lola (Rainer Werner Fassbinder) 7. One from the Heart (Francis Ford Coppola) 8. Mad Max 2 (George Miller) 9. Raiders of ...
by Gillingham
Tue Mar 28, 2017 5:26 pm
Forum: Films, movies, motion pictures...
Topic: Films of the 1990s: Top 150 movies of 1990s FINAL RESULTS
Replies: 129
Views: 11297

Re: Films of the 1990s: Top 150 movies of 1990s FINAL RESULTS

Also, what makes American Beauty pretentious? And for those of you who find it pretentious, do you also dislike Vampire Weekend, etc for being pretentious? I can agree with American Beauty being slightly pretentious, but I don't mind pretentiousness at all, as long as a film (or work of art in gene...
by Gillingham
Tue Mar 28, 2017 2:47 pm
Forum: Music, music, music...
Topic: AMF Favorite Albums of All-Time -- List Thread
Replies: 361
Views: 38413

Re: AMF Favorite Albums of All-Time -- List Thread

spiritualized wrote:232--Radiohead - Amnesiac
477--Radiohead - Amnesiac
by Gillingham
Mon Mar 27, 2017 9:32 am
Forum: Music, music, music...
Topic: AMF Favorite Albums of All-Time -- List Thread
Replies: 361
Views: 38413

Re: AMF Favorite Albums of All-Time -- List Thread

1 | Radiohead | In Rainbows 2 | Boards of Canada | Music Has the Right to Children 3 | The Rolling Stones | Exile on Main St. 4 | Low | Things We Lost in the Fire 5 | Beach House | Teen Dream 6 | Autechre | Confield 7 | Massive Attack | Mezzanine 8 | Creedence Clearwater Revival | Cosmo's Factory 9 ...
by Gillingham
Wed Mar 22, 2017 1:25 pm
Forum: Films, movies, motion pictures...
Topic: Films of the 1990s: Top 150 movies of 1990s FINAL RESULTS
Replies: 129
Views: 11297

Re: Films of the 1990s: Top 150 movies of 1990s FINAL RESULTS

Interesting article notbrianeno, thanks for posting it to add to the discussion. From my perspective and experiences it is really valuable to read articles like this, in order to understand and appreciate what trans women are facing in their daily lives. Part of me wants to say: yes, I get why you h...
by Gillingham
Wed Mar 22, 2017 7:59 am
Forum: General Discussion
Topic: AMF Favorite Books Poll: Voting Thread
Replies: 65
Views: 6053

Re: AMF Favorite Books Poll: Voting Thread

Since posting here a month ago, I've read: Stanislaw Lem - His Master's Voice Charles Dickens - A Tale of Two Cities Jose Saramango - Blindness Chinua Achebe - Things Fall Apart None of which will make my list, unfortunately. Currently reading Carsons McCullers' The Member of the Wedding and am defi...
by Gillingham
Tue Mar 21, 2017 8:25 am
Forum: Films, movies, motion pictures...
Topic: Films of the 1990s: Top 150 movies of 1990s FINAL RESULTS
Replies: 129
Views: 11297

Re: Films of the 1990s: Top 150 movies of 1990s FINAL RESULTS

LOL at most the USA films at the bottom. What a joke. This will probably be the last time I participate in a obviously biased and skewed poll like this. I normally don't whine about stuff like this but this is a very slanted and one sided poll. This really amazes me. If anything, this poll is biase...
by Gillingham
Tue Mar 07, 2017 7:23 pm
Forum: Poll creations
Topic: Best Canadian Bands/Musicians of All Time
Replies: 6
Views: 745

Re: Best Canadian Bands/Musicians of All Time

I wanted to vote Godspeed You! Black Emperor, but unfortunately they are not even on the list.

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